Wedges for Hardwood moulding

barton · Post by **barton** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 1:25 pm

Hi,

We have some 50mm Ash moulding which is extremely hard indeed and are wondering which wedges are best to use?

Have struggled so far using an entry level foot operated Cassese to get a decent join

Any advice appreciated

Thanks

Tam Lin · Post by **Tam Lin** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 2:35 pm

Hello,

We join a lot of ash and oak and use Cassese hardwood wedges in 10 and 15mm sizes. We have a Cassese CS89 pneumatic underpinner and this needs to be fed at 8 bar to get the wedges in. A lot seems to depend on the speed of insertion - too slow and they bind in the wood and force the corner open.

Having years ago used a pedal machine, I wouldn't have dreamt of trying to join ash with it. Even if you can get the wedges in, they won't go anywhere near far enough into a 50mm moulding and of course you can't stack 'em.

My suggestion, particularly as your moulding is very deep, is to revert back to drilling and pinning. Put the corner in a mitre vice and secure using pins and glue. I know someone who does this using a nail gun, this is also very effective.

Good luck!

Dave

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 5:53 pm

I had little success with ash or even some ramin with a manual underpinner - and even with a noomatic one - some mouldings are a pain in the ash.

markw · Post by **markw** » Sun 22 Jul, 2007 6:44 pm

I always look at the grain - almost inevitably if you get a cross grain your going to have problems. Ive had wedges split and come out of the side of the moulding before now. I have never tried to join ash or oak on a manual UP and wouldn't want to try - On my Casesse pneumatic UP I have to use the hard head and make sure the head is positioned close to the work. Even then I probably wouldn't stack

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 12:03 pm

Glue them with suitable glue for ash.......

I used to glue them and use a very small hard wood v-nail (wedge) just to hold the corner in place and then use one of those strap clamps to keep the corners together while the glue dried.

Remember regardless of the moulding it is the glue that keeps the corners together.............the v-nail is only holding the corner in position................ask any carpenter or cabinet maker

With ash you can be generous with the glue and if you get some seepage you can wipe it off with a damp cloth

Post by **prospero** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 2:44 pm

Good plan Dermot. That's exactly how I do deep ash/oak/ramin mouldings. My pinner is manual and only takes max 10mm wedges. If it's a big frame I like to use Araldite (the orig slow setting sort). It gives you about 2hrs setting time to play with. I put one wedge in and cinch the whole thing up with a webbing clamp. You just hace to make sure all excess glue is removed, but in practice only a very thin coat is needed. It's a bit of a pain if you are doing a lot of frames as it's best to leave them under pressure for at least 24hrs, but at least you know you will have a sound joint.

btw. On the subject of webbing clamps, for many years I have used one made by Stanley. (ref 83-259). They came with about 12ft of webbling and are really handy. You tension them with a spanner, so you can get a lot of pressure on. Great for 'persuading' awkward mouldings. I don't think Stanley make them anymore, but I may be wrong. They are certainly worth having in the workshop. Other ones I have tried don't really allow you to get enough tension on.

Tam Lin · Post by **Tam Lin** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 5:53 pm

We use LION steel ribbon band clamps, part No 1016 or 1017. Quite expensive, but excellent for difficult mouldings, ours have been in continous use for ten years or. They can be found here: http://www.lionpic.co.uk/index.php?mode ... &x=61&y=12

To avoid bruising the moulding cut some thin MDF into pieces 1" x 3" and use two on each corner to cushion the clamps.

I hope this helps,

Dave

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 6:08 pm

This one time - in band clamp.

Sorry!

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 8:49 pm

Dermot wrote: Remember regardless of the moulding it is the glue that keeps the corners together.............the v-nail is only holding the corner in position................ask any carpenter or cabinet maker

This is only partly true! A joint without vee nails is much easier to break apart than a joint with vee nails. If you don't believe me, try an experiment yourself. I have on several occasions and each time the joint with vee nails was harder to break and certainly will not just fall apart when the glue line is broken.

The vee nail acts a bit like the steel reinforcement in concrete!

As far as strap clamps ar concenred, the one shown at: http://www.axminster.co.uk/pricing/INC/ ... -23538.htm
is excellent and a lot of pressure can be applied. It is also inexpensive at about 19 quid in your money. I paid $45 each for eight of them a few years ago and they are worth every cent!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 9:14 pm

Some 'V' nails are also 'waisted' and actually pull the mitre together - but what about pre-underpinner days - were the nails just there whilst the glue dried?

Most carpenters' joints aren't mitres anyway - not where strength and support is required - they'll dovetail, mortice and tenon, tongue and groove etc.

Be nice, wouldn't it, if we had a machine that cut a nice dovetail on the mitre and we just slotted them together with some glue.

I'd still want to ptssst-thunk some V nails in though, just so's I could put it away and forget about it.

If it's just glued and it comes apart, the glass can become a guillotine - don't anyone just go glueing and clamping.

The mitre joint is a weak one without some hardware or fancy male/female joints, especially when containing something on the vertical plane.

osgood · Post by **osgood** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 9:25 pm

Roboframer wrote: Be nice, wouldn't it, if we had a machine that cut a nice dovetail on the mitre and we just slotted them together with some glue.

It's called a "Thumbnailer", but I don't know if they are still available.

Spit · Post by **Spit** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 9:25 pm

Has anyone tried the cornerlock system? Lion have it on their site and

it is ideal for joining harder wood mouldings, such as ash.

Looks horrendously expensive, though.

Post by **prospero** » Mon 23 Jul, 2007 10:22 pm

Not quite the same thing as the Cornerlock system, but I often use a bisquit joiner. It is useful on BIG frames, particualy when working single-handed. I glue up the four corners on a bench, putting plenty in the bisquit slots and then quicky put a band clamp around. The slots allow fine alignment in a horizontal direction but always keeps the corners aligned in the vertical. When its all tightened up I can take the whole thing to the pinner or more often I put a few nails across the corner. On really bulky mouldings I put a couple of 100mm woodscrews in the corners, although this is really only an option on frames that are going to be hand-finished as the huge screw holes can be made good. When the glue is set the bisquits give great strength to the join.

The bisquits come in various sizes, but this way is only practical on moulding >50mm.

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Sat 28 Jul, 2007 6:32 am

On the Grumble http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=26476

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 28 Jul, 2007 8:31 am

Ive tried the cornerlock system - I borrowed the machine from a friend to see if it worked. I came to the conclusion the machine works - is easy to use but produces too much dust to be practical for my workshop. Nielsen used to offer this as an additional service when you ordered chop.