The Framers Forum

WelshFramer wrote:Oh, forgot to say, it's a great way of allowing customers to choose frames that match their furniture.

I have had 'em coming in clutching doors off the kitchen units.

Wood finishes are where you really score by hand-finishing. Most pre-fin woods fall well into the 'cookin' variety. They tend towards the plasticy look. You can get a really classy finish very quickly just using simple materials and a bit of elbow grease. With a bit more time you can get very convincing decorative verneer effects. I can paint birds-eye maple on obeche that looks better than the real stuff off the shelf.

My Dad used to be very good at what he called Scumbling - light base coat of paint - wash of thinned translucent contrasting colour over the top - combed to look like wood grain - He could make a door look magnificent. Great effect but it would take hours of work to achieve.

If you can buy a Birds Eye moulding why spend ages painting it?

markw wrote: If you can buy a Birds Eye moulding why spend ages painting it?

The BE maple that is is available finished generally looks like formica. Also it is only available on the traditional ogee profile.
Old maple frames darken with age and it is almost impossible to get the same effect on new verneer. A 'faux' effect on obeche often gets nearer.

I don't spend hours on it btw. In fact the quicker you do it the better. I you fiddle about too much you tend to spoil the effect.

Moglet wrote:My greatest workshop disaster to date came from dropping a near-full, 2 litre bottle of Diet Coke: the bottle split after hitting the deck.

Imagine how big a numpty I felt chasing round the floor after it: the blasted thing was jet-propelled ...

we fit plastic bottles to the drain pipes on the bambi compressors. Great until they are almost full.... ahem.

re the woods and finishing them yourself - its a great way of doing things. Down our way, howevery, 40 percent will be in plain white painted, and 50 percent in white-limed, and the other ten percent in traditional polished finishes straight out the briwax range.

prospero wrote:Old maple frames darken with age and it is almost impossible to get the same effect on new verneer.

Good quality maple veneers are still about, if you want the proper stuff, but not unfortunately on "off the shelf" mouldings. If you want that "lit from within" effect, forget about modern stains and finishes and make your own oil based ones. When the surface of a beautiful piece of wood has aborbed plenty of oil, it gains an extraordinary visual quality which can not be acheived by other means.

Unfortunately, really fantastic looking old maple has been re-oiled over many, many years until the surface layer of the wood is completely saturated with well dried and matured oil. I don't think our customers will wait quite that long, but we can still acheive something which captures much of the effect.

Oils are also used in some french polishing to add depth to the finish. The process is called bodying-up, which is a good description of the effect it gives.

Roboframer wrote: Well, this is good, this is VERY good and I hope all framers think the same, esp those within spitting distance of lil ole moi.

I have an 'area' for this - I do a lot of it - if I bought the same moulding pre-finished I would be earning far less profit.

Having an area for doing this tedious, time consuming work is a great idea, but if you had a CMC occupying that area, it would probably be a much more time efficient use of that space!

As I said before I admire you guys for all this hand finishing stuff, but I think you will find that it is much more popular in your neck of the woods than in most other places in the world.

I always have a time problem. I am always behind in my schedule. I left last week vacant so that I could catch up on the backlog of jobs, but only got through about two thirds of the backlog.

As far as profit is concerned, I am of the opinion that it is more profitable to get work done more quickly and thus do more jobs in any given time period. After all isn't that why we buy certain machinery and tools - to improve turnover and profit???

In the time it takes to hand finish a moulding, I can cut and join four or twenty seven frames so this means I get more jobs done and make more profit! Seems logical to me!

Well I thought I'd briefly explained how it is not tedious OR time consuming and how it is very profit generating.

I looked at my prehistoric price chart today and found that if I sold a 20x16 frame in something that cost me 50p per foot - finished, with a single mount, it would cost about £39* - but aforementioned ash frame (ash 11 - Simons) same size; finished by me, costing me the same 50p per foot and marked up at twice list price before 20% discount, would cost £73*

So - for NINE MINUTES work I think I'm quids in - don't you? I mean it would take me longer than that to do a nice washline/French Mat - much much longer and in that case I WOULD have to clear an area and get stuff out, I mean - who has a 'washline-ing area FFS?! - and for that washline I'd charge - well, about the same actually - but for more effort - so what do I do - drop washlines? Nope - bags of profit there - bugger all outlay - just some skill.

I have an 'area' and I also have an area I could put a CMC in and if push comes to shove I don't REALLY need a 12x6' island workbench either - so I have plenty of scope.

Taking it further - for CMC owners - what would you charge that difference for - say £35 on a 20x16" mount - what's going to cost that - above and beyond the basic mount? And - how long are you sat on your arse designing it? ...... Would you be happy, if it were a total one-off, with £35 for 9 minutes? (And remember that that 9 mins is absolutely maximum for basic hand finishing procedure described above)

Were I a one man band? ............. nah - I'd still offer it, maybe not push it, but definitely offer it.

* From memory - but in general it worked out about double in most cases.

Ormond - you can cut and join twenty seven frames in nine minutes?

Credo!

Roboframer wrote: Ormond - you can cut and join twenty seven frames in nine minutes?

John,
Just a number for illustration purposes, but I could cut and join pretty close to a dozen if I needed to and wanted to rush like blazes. I use a double mitre saw and computerised vee nailer. It takes longer to apply glue to four corner surfaces than it does to join them. Joining takes about 15 to 30 seconds for a small to average frame.

Most people could not hand finish a frame in nine minutes, but those who have had experience could be that quick. I guess the time it takes would depend on what the finish was and how many processes. The finishes on most of the pre finished frame I use could not be done that quickly by hand as they require a sprayed clear finish after all the colouring steps.

It's interesting that we have so many different approaches and I think that's a good thing. It can broaden our outlook and we can learn some interesting stuff from each other.

I've got to admit that this is a skill i very much want to learn more about, i've seen pete bingham create an absolute wonder in a minute or 2 and decided then that i'd like to give it a bash. Unfortunately i've not managed to work with anyone who's had the time or the skill to show me what i need to know to get the most out of what is obviously a very satisfying ( and profitable ) skill.

I'm hoping that it's something i can look into in the near future. Unfortunately, due to only framing part time an the moment and also having another full time job i don't have too much time to look into training.

To all of you who do hand finish frames, keep it up, there's nothing like it, I have to be honest, if i was just a normal punter it's something i would definately pay for.