The Framers Forum

Roboframer wrote:...spring water - not distilled

I'm curious about why you choose to use spring water, John. My untutored instinct would have been to use the latter.

As mine always was and as I had read/been advised.

Distilled water is 'hungry' basically - no guessing where I read it, but as soon as I did .....

I'll see if I can find the link.

(Edit) well that didn't take many seconds - you could call this anal but bottled water is cheaper than distilled - dunno about the reverse osmosis gear though!!

Being completely anal (in a totally retentivetastic sorta way), distilled (i.e. pure) water is pH-neutral: the only modifier would be contaminants in the receptacle in which it was captured. Assuming the container used for delivery is hermetically sealed, there will be no other way for contaminants to change the pH of the water.

If the support was the equivalent of a semi-permeable membrane, then osmotic pressure (which results in migration of molecules from an area of higher concentration to one of a lower concentration) introducing a completely ph-neutral fluid would lead to the migration of molecules from the support into the hinge until such time as the hinge dried, the ramifications of which would, IMO, definitely be one for a professional conservator to clarify. The question-mark I would have in my mind about osmotic effects is this: Once the starch is added, the water is no longer pure, so that in itself would affect osmotic pressure within the system.


(Note: minor edits in 2nd paragraph for clarity: sense remains the same.)

Wow!

Reckon you should bump that Grumble thread back up to the top with that one. No qualified conservator chipped in after all.

Mind you - that was the first topic on a search for the word 'distilled' - maybe the info came from previous ones where a conservator gave more info? But if it did I don't remember it!

Being realistic, I think the most important thing to consider is to create a hinge that is at minimum pH-neutral, and most definitely not acidic (ergo, chlorinated water is a major no-no). Anything else is unnecessarily academic. Case in point is an original watercolour. What type of water did the artist use? See worra mean?

I thank everyone for the very interesting posts on my enquiry. I don't do a great deal of articles made of parchment, so I will pass on the more expensive options. I did a bit of research on superglue and, as it is basically skin and can be removed with soapy water, I thought I would go for micro-dots of this. The client said she wasn't bothered what I used so long as it stayed in position. [/quote]

Ah well, your choice is an informed one at least

The best way isn't the most expensive either - you were already using it.

33m of Japanese paper 19mm wide will cost less than a box of hayaku. OK you can't buy it like that and the initial outlay will be more than that box of hayaku - but then a Morso costs more than a tenon saw and mitre box.

superglue as a reversible method of attaching parchment - certainly worth looking at. wetting the parchment enough to remove the glue might be a problem.

I don't think the parchment would have to be wetted so much as the glue. If it was required to remove it, the weakest point would be the surface of the backing card. Parchment, glue and surface could be carefully torn away, possibly with the aid of a scalpel, and the wetting would then be possible from the back of the item.

It would surely require a spirit based solvent; not soapy water.

I've repaired stuff with superglue that has survived a dishwasher!

Skin it might be, but it's dried, stretched and treated, otherwise it would just decompose - you can't exfoliate it and it's not going to keep renewing itself like yours does and that process helps with nasty stuff that gets stuck to your skin.

I'd use silicone or PVA before superglue, not that I'd use any of those. If I wasn't going to use hinges I'd use dots of wheatstarch paste, (again cheaper than superglue) which I've shown works.

You've gone for a cop out.

Well, you can lead a horse to water...

............ and it could get colic!

I'd hate anyone to screw something up after reading advice I had posted without experimenting and becoming adept via practice.

Once someone wrote in to one of our trade mags saying s/he had taken advice from 'one of these forums' on hinging an old engraving or something like.

The advice was starch paste but it had made a damp patch - come through to the front and made an imprint in the paper.

S/he simply had not done it right, the paste was either the wrong consistency, too wet or both. The mag's resident expert basically said forget all that starch stuff and recommended a well known self adhesive brand of 'conservation' tape.

I put the gist here - stated, in no uncertain terms - (as I used to in those days) that the framer simply did not do it right - and then I took a right bashing!

So - anyway - anyone not familiar with the methods and materials, but wanting to hinge in a truly reversible (and strong) method - the links to the products are all here - there is at least one to the methods elsewhere.

Just get the stuff and experiment, on flimsy paper to vellum/parchment/whatever. Or don't, and just depend on what you can get from (our) framing suppliers; in which case you will never be framing to full preservation standards (if a hinge is required).

Oh - and most of my 'clients' aren't bothered what I use either, why should they be? You're the pro - you're the one that needs to be bothered.

Duly chastened

deejay wrote:I don't think the parchment would have to be wetted so much as the glue. If it was required to remove it, the weakest point would be the surface of the backing card. Parchment, glue and surface could be carefully torn away, possibly with the aid of a scalpel, and the wetting would then be possible from the back of the item.

I would be extremely careful about getting moisture anywhere near this parchment. If it is truly an animal skin, it will very hygroscopic and you are likely to end up with those damp parts “puckering” on you.

Letting it air dry may not get rid of those “bubbles”, but trying to speed the process with a heat press would most likely spell disaster.

When I first started framing, not knowing what I was doing, I tried to flatten a sheepskin diploma in the heat press. It shrunk considerably and, more alarmingly, very unevenly, so i was left with terribly out of square document which I was unable to mat (mount) effectively.

Be very, verrrry careful!

Hi Guys,
Good advise from Bill always proceed with caution
Don't take on what you can't handle, learn how to do it from the experts, or pass it on to a Conservator you can always add a percentage without the worry of being sued.

A great book I read some time back by
Vivian C Kistler, CPF GCF i
Includes many mounting methods, there is also an articul in it on Vellum and Parchment.
The book is called Conservation Framing Volume 4, there may be a later version out know?
Published by Columba Publishers Company Akron Ohoio.
It could be available from the Guild?
www.fineart.co.uk or contact Lousie Hay at info@fineart.co.uk

Cheers MITREMAN
www.framersequipment.co.uk

I think that Lion carry that Kistler book. Worth checking the website if anyone is looking for a copy.