The Framers Forum

Moglet wrote:I heard that ...

Oh! you're awake are you?

Except for real cheapo posters, I am reluctant to use any adhesives on something that might be of value.

If you are using acrylics, you might consider using the “electrostatic” properties of that material. When you remove the paper or plastic film from it, it will generate a static charge that will ordinarily attract every dust bunny in western Europe. You could use that charge to keep the poster in place. Positioning it might be a bit tedious, though.

Ordinarily you wouldn’t want to have the poster in direct contact with the glazing, but acrylics do not transmit heat anywhere as near as much as glass, so micro condensation on the interior shouldn’t be too much of a concern, I don’t think.

And, the surface of the acrylic shouldn’t be smooth enough to allow for “Newton’s Rings”.

Just a thought.

prospero wrote: Not suprised. She is still trying to get the stain out the carpet

Maybe someone should suggest Depends™ for her.

gesso wrote:kev Ive seen many pieces of artwork stuck to acrylic as to glass. if left in contact with most surfaces and moisture is added paper will stick to anything.

You cant do conservation by degrees use archival materials, construct your framing to conservation rules and your a conservation framer! the rest ....pi**ing into the wind

Once an item has left your workshop you have very little controle over it that is why certain rules have been put in place Keep the artwork away from contact with ALL surfaces but hey! as long as you've got a good insurance policy and a hugh customer base its amazing how much you can get away with!

I'm in a generous mood, Bill, so I'll bite...

Bill Henry wrote:... Depends™

Moglet wrote:I'm in a generous mood, Bill, so I'll bite...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depend

gesso wrote:
Once an item has left your workshop you have very little controle over it that is why certain rules have been put in place Keep the artwork away from contact with ALL surfaces but hey! as long as you've got a good insurance policy and a hugh customer base its amazing how much you can get away with!

Rules are made to be broken!

Anyway when you say 'all surfaces' I'm assuming you mean just from the front - IOW the glass.

Years and years ago (OK about six) I learned that you can indeed plonk something of value against the glass, as long as that glass is an internal component of a box frame and spaced at least 2" away from the 'main' glass.

Also, as Bill Henry says - acrylic is different to glass - far more extreme temperatures and fluctuations are required to form condensation on acrylic - but then there is 'acrylic' and there is 'acrylic'

It's all on The Grumble - but opting for the max level there, well, I know I have two hopes of selling it (Optium acrylic) here - Bob Hope and no hope. I once had a quote from G&M for this stuff; they said that if they had an offcut they'd charge me £700 per sq m. Otherwise I'd have to pay for a full sheet - about £3,750.

That's it, Mr. Henry. Gloves off...

The way I see it with giving advise to people who have a limited experience relating to their question is you have to be clear
Now if you give advice you are taking on a certain responsibility, blurring the rules will only end up producing substandard understandings. It's is great that people can get advice here but from the posts I have read purporting to give experienced knowledge it ends up being half baked and therefor could cause misdirection ending up with artwork being damaged if not at a higher risk of damage. The acrylic topic being one in question. Of Course it has a lower capacity to succumb to moisture problems but as you rightly give clear advice on hingeing there is really only one approach to artwork surfaces and that is to keep them away from ANY situation where they could sustain damage.
I treat a cheap posters, prints just the same way I do the more valuable works, cos as I said earlier once its left your workshop you never know where they will end up. Yep theres acrylic and theres acrylic . Theres conservation with a 'c' and a 'C' as you said once, you do your best

Situations may arise where you have no choice, bar maybe to turn the work away, than to not apply your usual methods and standards.

I did say the info is all there on TFG and so it is, other places too, but there are limitations and I take your point that a little knowledge can be dangerous. Folks, please, on the strength of what I said earlier, don't go slapping things against the glass!

I've done museum glass sandwich mounts (with that sandwich spaced well away from glass in a double-sided frame) for things like banknotes, to achieve an uncanny floating look - wouldn't, for example, do one for a pastel though!

Roboframer wrote:...an uncanny floating look...

Hi John,

The minute I read the above my ears pricked! Do you have any pics of same? I have a personal project that I'm trying to achieve that look for.

Sorry, no, but an exploded diagram would be better anyway.

I'll have a bash at describing it ......

2 lites of museum glass - (I actually used Nielsen's clearcolour +UV - as it's waterwhite, but it needn't have UV prot - that can happen, if needs be, on the outer glass.

You can use a no-adhesive method on a small item like a banknote - well, you also can on something larger - just not this one!

Get a sheet of clear rubber bumpers and cut small triangles from the waste areas. Stick these to both pieces of glass where the corners of the note (whatever) will be - it's a pain! But there is no need to measure, just lay the glass on TOP of the note, where you want the note to be, and you have a template.

The pressure formed when these are sandwiched together, as long as there is not TOO much space around the item, is sufficient to hold it.

Hope that makes sense!

Two frames back to back is an option, but a pain! I mitred a 4" flat moulding on its side and capped it with a narrower one; made a foamboard spacer, lined with black/black core mountboard, (that makes it difficult to see the 'slot' that the glass sandwich is in) dropped the front glass in, then a narrow back to back mount with fillets, then fixed the spacer, then dropped the glass sandwich on to that.

Made another spacer ditto, fixed that in place on top of the glass sandwich, applying as much pressure as poss, on top of that another back to back mount with fillets, then the backing glass (all glass was clearcolor +UV but the front & back pieces don't have to be AR glass - the note still seems to be floating in mid air)

Tabs from a pneumatic gun against the back glass, (I've broken many a piece of glass with a manual gun, too much of a 'thump' with a manual gun - with a noomatic one it's all over before the glass realises what's going on!) lineco foil tape over those and finally a narrow black mount, PVA'd on to the tape just to tidy it up. Wallbuddies - so's you don't see wire/cord through the frame.

I used back to back mounts with fillets because the back of a mount doesn't look too good.

So - to summarise the frame contents, front to back.

Glass
Mount with fillet, backed with ...
Mount with fillet
Spacer
Glass sandwich - holding .... whatever
Spacer
Mount with fillet backed with .....
Mount with fillet
Glass
Tabs
Lineco foil tape
Mount.


Sorry for the Frankenthread - but hope it makes sense anyway.

Roboframer wrote:Situations may arise where you have no choice, bar maybe to turn the work away, than to not apply your usual methods and standards.

Of Course there are always going to be variables on a theme. Truth be known ..but under duress I have succumbed to a customers wishes and done a sandwich job myself the only problem I had was that the item was worth about £400k so I made sure it was museum glass I used. my only line of defence was it was for a BIG banker who a few years ago earned 25mil as a bonus and had smuggled the work in question out of India. I'm still waiting for the bad karma to go!

Apologies also for the frankenthread.

John, I get the idea. Can you PM me your email?

I think the most underrated point made so far is how much experience have you got with framing very large items?
in my experience the bigger the item, the bigger the cockup when one happens (not if, when)
So we all sort of agree, the best materials, materials and methods that are reversible and do the least harm to the poster.

Framing and handling big stuff is often a two man job, and a clear the workshop scenario. So the only time I'd refuse one would be to lumber the opposition with it

In reality how many BIG frames do most of us do in a year - eg over 4ftx3ft?
in our place its maybe one big one a week, absolute max. so thats no more than 50 a year, probably 30 or much less.
I cant remember the last time I ordered a sheet of "oversize" glass now I come to think of it.

So I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say that I dont think the amount of "big" frames I do amounts to much "experience". But I can say that virtually every big frame we have done, specially big cinema posters has not been the easiset of jobs. And if im honest I'll say that I have rarely charged enough on a big frame.

It's annoying when you need a piece of glass just over 48". Haven't had one of those for ages. Last one needed a piece of Museum glass 50". Which would mean buying two sheets of 60x40. As it happened I managed to jiggle the design down to 48". Most of the giant-sized frames I do nowadays are for oils. Got a 6'x4' on the go at the moment and that's quite a heavy lump without the glass.

yea, i should have said glazed frames. I just remembered we did forty 5ft x 5ft frames in oak for an exhibition just before christmas.
that just filled the place up!
Sympathies on the "just over" scenario, thats the worst of them all!

prospero wrote:It's annoying when you need a piece of glass just over 48". Haven't had one of those for ages. Last one needed a piece of Museum glass 50". Which would mean buying two sheets of 60x40.

Yeah, but how were you thinking of joining them?