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Mary Evans wrote:There has been much discussion about the Guild not allowing non-member GCFs to use the GCF logo.
All GCFs are allowed to use the initials after their name, to display their certificate, and use the information in their advertising, but only members can display the logo.
Mary Evans
Thank you for that reply Mary. However, you have now contradicted yourself. See BOLD text above.
My GCF certificate carries the FATG logo.
On receiving my warning letter from the Guild, I queried as to whether I could display my certificate. The answer was "No as it has the FATG logo on it".
Mary Evans wrote:There has been much discussion about the Guild not allowing non-member GCFs to use the GCF logo.
It has been claimed that “it is like a university giving you a degree, then not allowing you to use or promote that degree unless you pay them a fee every year”. In my experience, graduates with degrees use the initials B.A. (or whatever degree is relevant) after their name, and may hang their graduation certificate; they aren’t given a University logo or shield to hang alongside.
Also quoted is a cut from the Guild website, the relevant part of which is the claim that non-members are not allowed to “1. use GCF status for publicity and promotion, and 2. enhance their entry in Yellow Pages or Thomson Directories”. GCF non-members are indeed allowed to do this in words – what they are not permitted to do is use the GCF logo, which implies Guild membership.
It costs £95 + VAT for a member to take the GCF, £125 + VAT for a non-member. This is not mega-bucks for a qualification because we want to encourage framers to improve both their own standards and the public image of the framing trade. The Guild Commended Framer logo includes the Fine Art Trade Guild logo and is obviously part of this organisation. Why should a fairly minimal one-off payment (probably the price of one decent framing job for many framers) entitle a framer to display the logo for the rest of his working life? That would be the bargain of the century! All GCFs are allowed to use the initials after their name, to display their certificate, and use the information in their advertising, but only members can display the logo. The GCF logo implies affiliation with the Guild and if the logo could be displayed by non-members, I suspect we would have an equal number of irate paid-up members!
Mary Evans
This typifies the lack of comprehension within the guild of the decision makers. Your reluctance to allow GCFs to display the GCF logo has cost you a real chance to make the public realise that good framers have a link to a trade body that upholds standards in the framing industry. The benefit of seeing the logo goes to the trade body as much as the framer and establishes the FATG logo as one worth looking for. The situation at present means that the FATG miss out on being the body that maintains (i use the word loosely) and establish standards of training and production. So your average punter might well see that his framer is a GCF but he wont have the opportunity to see anything else.
The university degree argument is equally stupid - Anyone having gone to a particular university will always have the right to wear ties badges etc.
Any argument is won by the take up of membership - from my personal observation very few framers are members - and many have left - cant think of any who are GCFs locally who are still members.
Perhaps if the FATG were to make an offer to past members and new members of a reduced rate subscription for the first year with a v iew to substantially increasing the number of members then they would be in a position to look again at rates for every body. In that way we might get a trade body that represents the majority of the trade and not the minority.
In these difficult times we need to all pull together and keep the trade alive and promote it to encourage the public to come to us for a decent job rather than the IKEA put it together yourself option.
I have a major city (pop. 250,000 approx) close by (10 miles) and in that city there are only two high street framing shops one of which has significantly downsized its operation. Another went into liquidation last month and another closed voluntarily all within the last 12 months. Other than that there are the usual "garage framers" plus a couple of predominantly trade framers in industrial units and thats it.
This trade needs promoting to the public to fulfil a demand which exists.
I write this as an FATG member but will admit to thinking twice about continued membership.
membership of an openly democratic body that took some notice of "one man bands" like mine. Didnt employ overpaid head office staff - and kept membership costs to a reasonable rate would get me as a member. The autocratic out of touch head in the clouds organisation that exists at the moment wont be getting any support from me.
My graduation certificate has the name and emblem of the university at which I studied as does my certificate for my Post Graduation Certificate (different university).
There's potentially a simple solution to the dichotomy. Perhaps Guild Members could petition the Guild to redesign the GCF logo as a standalone emblem without any components of the FATG main logo. Surely that would eliminate any perceived conflicts to the Guild's satisfaction viz-a-viz potential customers thinking that the GCF logo implied Guild membership, and there would be no problem with non-Guild Member GCFs displaying their hard-won certificates and window stickers.
If the Guild were to redesign the GCF Certificates and window stickers, I think that there should also be a mechanism put in place where existing GCFs could obtain replacement certificates and window stickers for a small administration charge, or better still FOC.
........Áine JGF SGF FTB .Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
If you are a Guild Commended Framer, then what guild has commended you - the guild of master craftsmen?
No, you're a Fine Art Trade Guild Commended Framer, no-one can stop you putting those words in neon above your premises if you want to, (well the council planning dept maybe!) and why would anyone not asume you were a member of that body if you did? - So what difference does an image of some geezer in a silly hat with a quill make!
In answer to several posts I have checked my facts with the Guild office. I confirm that non-member GCFs can display their certificate, can put GCF after their name, and can make the statement in writing that they are Guild Commended Framers in their marketing. But they cannot use the logo, either as a window sticker or on any marketing material. This was reinforced after a situation where a customer thought they were dealing with a Guild member, who should have been abiding by the Guild Code of Ethics, but they were not a member.
Without the Fine Art Trade Guild, which relies on its membership to exist, there would be no GCF, no standards, no standards checks and no complaints handling. I think the Guild is a huge benefit to the picture framing trade in this country, and I agree with Johnny2morsos that “we all need to pull together and keep the trade alive.”
Mary Evans wrote:In answer to several posts I have checked my facts with the Guild office. I confirm that non-member GCFs can display their certificate, can put GCF after their name, and can make the statement in writing that they are Guild Commended Framers in their marketing. But they cannot use the logo, either as a window sticker or on any marketing material. This was reinforced after a situation where a customer thought they were dealing with a Guild member, who should have been abiding by the Guild Code of Ethics, but they were not a member.
But is the logo not included in the certificate and also on the GCF window sticker?
Also was the framer in question a GCF displaying the logo as part of the GCF logo - or a non-qualified non-member displaying just the logo? Because that's a whole different ball gane.
Here is the GCF logo
gcflogo[1].jpg
Can a non member display that and use it in marketing material?
BTW Mary - respect to you for being a FATG voice here - every time anyone starts a topic about the Guild or the GCF test - it turns in to something like this with the same, or some of the same people airing the same grievances over and it takes some guts to keep taking it. Pity more on 'your side' - who do exist here, don't give you more support.
Robo, have you broken a guild law by posting that image?
The bottom line is that framers will vote with their cheque books and the guild needs the membership fees.
Unfortunately, I don’t know many framers who are members and I know lots who are not members. But it should be the other way round.
If members of the guild hierarchy read this then I’m sorry to say but you are getting it wrong – VERY wrong. And that’s sad because it could be good – VERY good.
My 2 pence worth is to completely separate picture framing from the FATG (what part of Fine Art is to do with picture framing? We frame much more than fine art.) Its time for a ‘British Professional Picture Framers Association’ and you, the ‘Fine Art Trade Guild’ - yes you, you can do it. Well you should be able to do it – but I’m afraid your track record is not good (how long is the new website over due now?)
I want to be a member of a Picture Framing guild.
I want to be a member of a Picture Framing guild that works.
Come on FATG, if you are as good as you say you are this sort of stuff should be a walk in the park.
And relax.
Oh, by the way. Don’t you just hate it when a thread gets hijacked?
Daisy, take the GCF exam, I’m sure you will pass it with flying colours.
Mary - i might give you a hard time over the FATG but I do agree with Roboframer - I respect your postings and I hope that any comments we make on this forum can be seen as constructive.
I get annoyed at myself for following these FATG threads, because I always end up feeling frustrated.
I drafted a very lengthy response, but decided not to post it, because it was not exactly what I'd describe as "complimentary."
Suffice to say, I think there is great interest among quality framers in having a professional body to represent and market the benefits of their services to the public. I think that proof positive of this is the fact that FATG-related threads on this Forum typically tend to become very heated, and I think that the Guild should recognise that the nature of the response is born out of the passion that many of us have for our work, our commitment to producing quality merchandise for our customers, and promoting recognition of the skill and commitment to quality that we offer to our customers. I'm sad to say that, despite some areas having very active and beneficial FATG member groups, there is no such activity in my area, so no benefit to be derived from membership there.
Also, since receiving my foundational training in framing (under the auspices of a GCF), I'm sad to report that I have seen first-hand work produced by FATG members that was, shall we say, "nothing to write home about."
I perceive no real benefit to my business through becoming a member: I have not seen any evidence of the Guild promoting awareness in the general population of the benefits of having work carried out by a knowledgeable, highly-skilled framing professional. Secondly, and much more importantly IMO, I don't think membership of the FATG is any guarantee whatsoever to customers that they will automatically end up with a better class of workmanship by placing framing business with a member of the FATG, GCF or otherwise. (This would frustrate me even more if I actually was an FATG member!!!) This opinion is based on witnessing first-hand what I consider to be shoddy, or even downright atrocious, work produced by framers who, for a fee, get to display an FATG logo. After I had completed my training (and consequently knew about good framing practices) I have had work framed for me as a customer; and, after starting my own framing business, I have reframed work produced by FATG members. The frames in question would never have been created in my workshop in the first place, and even if they had, I would certainly have been ashamed to let them out my door. Therefore, I see no attraction whatsoever in paying for the right to display a logo that is by and large meaningless to customers, and also one which has become meaningless to me as a producer of well-made, properly specified frames in terms of claims that it is an assurance of quality to potential customers.
........Áine JGF SGF FTB .Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
Daisy, my apologies for my contribution to the frankenthread, but I think it will give you an idea of how much members of the Forum (and probably many other framing professionals) really want to be part of a good trade organisation.
With respect to taking the GCF, being totally honest, I no longer perceive any potential benefits in using GCF status as a marketing tool, but I think it would be a source of tremendous personal satisfaction to achieve the qualification. If I achieved GCF status, I would personally very much wish to have an unfettered right to display that certificate on one of the walls of my premises, in celebration and recognition of my achievement (and it really is an achievement to be proud of!). I must admit that having to pay a de facto "annual licence fee" for the privilege is a MASSIVE turn-off for me.
........Áine JGF SGF FTB .Briseann an dúchas trí shuiligh an chuit.
I'll just post something brief in here. Save adding to the "frankenthread"
This is my opinion and not necessarily that of my mother
I personally will not be taking the GCF any time soon, as i feel it has not been advertised to the general public about the benefits of using someone with a GCF as well as it possibly could have by the Fine Art Trade Guild.
Now, onto my next point, because of recent debacle, although it is not my decision to make, I can see us not renewing our membership fees in future because i feel the Fine Art Trade Guild is no longer representative of the average framer.
