CMC VERSUS KEENCUT GOLD

[Otters Pool Studio]

This has been an extremely useful discussion as I'm seriously considering moving to a CMC from my Ultimat in an attempt to improve productivity without adding staff. I know that everyone will favour their own machine, but my biggest question is now - "Which one?"

I'd want a machine that cuts the outside square as well as the inside bevelled without having to manually change heads, so the Gunnar F1 Hybrid is looking like a good option from the research I've done. Anyone got any comments or other ideas?

With thanks, Jon.

[misterdiy]

Gunnar F1 s a good option and one which we considerd very seriously, but we had a Trucut Trophy originally - which was very good - but we do a few contract orders at around 500 mounts a month plus the usual bespoke stuff and these needed a faster machine. So we upgraded to the Alpha which is a vacuum bed and is superb. We love it but its noisy (vacuum pump) so we are looking at relocating the pump. We couldnt do without it.

Bit like a dishwasher really (no - not the wife)

Steve

[stcstc]

i use a gunnar F1hybrid. i love the fact not having to change heads etc.

BUT more importantly is software, you wanna play with the software for the machines. see which feels right

one thing i am looking forward to is being able to do bevel cut, straight cut and pen on mount in one go, with no head changes

the other thing is have a look at the cut quality, having gone through this a year ago, i compared cuts from the different machines and felt the gunnar was one of the best

[Tim]

I have always considered my CMC as being the same as a part time employee, but without all the disadvantages.

Requires less skill - anyone, new employee etc, can cut perfect mounts from day one

you will waste less boards, and spend no time thinking about mounts

You can also do intricate designs involving curves and such that would take forever doing them by hand.

they will save you time and produce a better cut each time. Multiple apertures are also a lot easier

When I bought a CMC I didn't think about recovering its cost, I looked at it as an upgrade to my business

Thanks to all the above. I've been looking for the perfect excuse for a CMC, now I have six!

[Graysalchemy]

Glad we have been of service to you, perhaps you will now cross over to the dark side

[Merlin]

Maybe I have missed something, but why is there such an emphasis on 90 degree cuts for the outside edge.

As the mount goes into a frame, you will not see it, so does it really matter?

From my web site, I am cutting over 200 mounts per week. 98% of them are bevel cut, inner and outer.
The other 2% get the 90 degree outside edge. That takes me 8 seconds to change the head.

wrt choice of CMC. It is all down to how deep your pockets are.

[stcstc]

i cut around and average of 500 sheets a month at the moment, and a large percentage go to people who are selling prints in bags, the bevel cut just looks wrong in this instance

[Roboframer]

Unless I specify otherwise, my machine cuts the outside the same way as the inside, so there's no white core to see just like you don't see a white core on the face of a fall out.

But I believe mounts that are to be sold un-framed should be 90 degree cut to prevent fingers being cut.

[Jonny2morsos]

On some print bags the bevel can cut open the join down the side of the bag.

All my mounts which are sold as mounts only have a 90 degree outside cut.

[Not your average framer]

Getting back to the original subject "CMC VERSUS KEENCUT GOLD", I've never heard of anyone getting a CMC and then wanting to go back to a manual mountcutter.

If your business is already established and you know what you are doing, you should be able to capitalise on having a CMC and as a result boost the effectiveness and profitability of your business.

I'm currently making the neccessary changes to my workshop and business prior to renting an F1-Hybrid. To me getting a CMC makes good sense - it's the next logical move for my business.

I already struggle with getting my workload done in a reasonable time. Well, a CMC will help a lot and I won't need any extra staff to handle more work. Not only that, but no matter which member of staff operates the CMC at the time, the quality of the mountcutting is gonna be o.k.

[Graysalchemy]

A cmc will save loads of time even on simple mounts. Tommorow I have got 6 six originals to mount, which was sprung on me today for tommorow. They are all differing sizes, witjh double mounts in both standard and thick board, backing and crystal wrapping which will hopefully take less than an hour to do. Hopefully I will be able to still get the rest of my work done before the weekend and the DIY

[Bagpuss]

It's interesting to read these comments about CMCs, I go through periods of thinking I'll definitely get one and then get cold feet. I have a Valiani mat-pro 120 so have always liked the Valiani machines. I must admit though I was really taken with the Gunnar's ability to switch from a 45 to 90 degree cut automatically, without changing heads, a nice touch . However, when I looked at the Gunnar website I realised that you have to buy a F1-Hybrid to get this facility and when I looked at how much this costs to purchase, I realised that I'd probably be happy to change cutting heads on the more competitively priced Valiani. But then if I was to rent and not purchase, perhaps it would be the Gunnar ... perhaps I need to give it some more thought .

[Roboframer]

How much is the hybrid, Adam?

[Not your average framer]

Hi Adam,

I spent a long time thinking about getting a CMC. I was first looking at CMC's about two or three years ago, but it was two other framers (both members of this forum), who finally persuaded me to go for it.

It's not a straight forward decision and not everyone will make the same choice. If you are buying and price is the principle thing then the Valliani is cheaper, but I will be renting and I decided to go for the Gunnar F1-Hybrid.

I had a good look at all the main contenders and my reasons for choosing the F1-hybrid were as follows:

No head changing. I just wanna hit the button and go!

Automatic blade depth control. (No need for manual adjustment) Again I just wanna hit the button and go!

I liked the software package.

The cutting angle on the Gunnar is 45 degrees, so the bevels and the v-grooves have lots of impact.

[stcstc]

hey adam


when i looked


the prices of the machines worked out actually about the same, well if you compare like with like

ie machines with similar specs, and then add the heads for the val machine, to get the same as the gunnar you need a min of 3 if not 4 heads

also if you wanna do boxes, the gunnar has them built in, there is an extra bit of software for the val.

BUT

the main thing is finding which feels right for you. ie which software feels right etc

this is why i went for the gunnar

[Otters Pool Studio]

Anyone considering whether to rent or buy should speak to their bank manager and accountant. With interest rates as they are, a business loan can result in monthly repayments that are less than the rental costs, and at the end of the loan, the machine is yours. There is also the VAT you can claim back in full on your next returm, plus the tax relieft on your next tax bill, plus the addition of the 'asset' to your business value.

[penfold]

You've got a bank that will give you a loan at the moment?

I rent my Gunnar F1XL Hybrid and i'm very happy with that situation, the back up is very good and the abilities of the machine will soon be caught up with by my own!!!

Theres always pros and cons as to buy or rent and they differ from business to business. One thing is for certain, I would not go back to manual cutting, especially as I sell a lot of 2800 and 3000 micron boards!!!

[MITREMAN]

IMHO,

The Ulitmate gold is fantastic workhorse and capable of doing hundreds of of mounts a week.

To warrant the use of a CMC you must be at the stage of.

1:I can't cope on my own.

2: I need to employ or work smarter.

3: I need a machine that can help.

The use of fancy mounts is a good marketing ploy not only for the Manufacture of the machine but also for the framer this must be understood.

If you want to invest in a machine that can do all, then you have to promote it with exsamples in you shop and on the web and tell your customers, "look at this" or it will take forever to pay for itself.

You will need to take many large orders to recover your costs and keep the machine going as much as possible with the help of a good marketing and business plan.

You will also have to take time to study the software and understand the imput details and make sure you get good back up from your service supplier.

I can understand where Robo framer is coming from, he has bought a machine not just to save time, but also as bonus to himself for all his hard work over the years, lets face it their are not may real new items of new equipment/gizmos that make the framers life easy that we have not all seen before.

Robo's idea of added a butterfly into a mount is great thats a marketing skill and Robo picks ups these things well because he observes the customer and their work and takes the time to offer something differant.

If you are good at marketing and web imput then it could be for you, but it must be promoted unless you have the capital just to make life easier.

For the average busy Framer looking to employ or expand or just take the strain out the job, I would look at a machine first that can cut normal mounts and doubles faster and easily be it Manual or part manual and computerised.

Such as the Smart machine which cuts a true 45 degree bevel. This machine is much cheaper and does what most customers and framers really need faster, more accurate normal mounts, no frills.

See the link below

http://www.framersequipment.co.uk/smart ... utters.htm

As for your oval cutter, many manufactures have stopped making them so hold on to it, you may not do many ovals or circles but if you have the machine you can do it when needed and if you want to do more it’s up to you to promote by examples, if the customer can't see it he will presume you don't do it. Don't forget to charge more for ovals and circles as you are offering a special mount that many framers can't.

Beveling out MITREMAN

[stcstc]

jan

I dont quite agree,i dont think you need to cut as many as you think to make a cmc pay for itself

I reckon 300-400 mounts a month makes a cmc pay for itself easily

which is actually less than a days work

I reckon it would take me 5 to 7 to do manually, so saving 4 to 6 days work, which is more than the rental on my gunnar

[MITREMAN]

Hi Stcstc,

Thank you for your reply, point taken

You say you are renting, that makes it differant to buying.

Do you get good back up from Gunner, I know that the Gunner is probably the cream of the cream in CMC, a fine machine.

I understand your maths and that seems logical, I also can see that you are saving a great deal of labour time, as these machines enable you to input or repete the data, load the board press the button and away she goes, while you go and do something else.

I also see from your website that you promote the service well, that makes all the difference to recovering your cost.

What % of mounts would you say are fancy as against normal per month?

What is it costing you a month if you don't mind me asking?

If your CMC breaks down, I presume you are well looked after within your rental aggrement?

How long would you say it took you to learn to imput your data so you could do it as second nature, would you say Personally that you had to be PC wish kid or just a few lessons and trial and error?

When you went down the road of a CMC/Gunner what made you want a CMC and why?

How did you come to the Conclusion CMC/Gunner was best move and machine for you, just interested to know your opinion ?

Kind Regards
Jan