Guild Guild Framers Committee reply to points raised on TFF

[Vix]

No there's at least two of us

[Graysalchemy]

If we get three then it may be a bit crowded in the Guild Dungeon.

[Nigel Nobody]

We seem to be going around the same circle yet again.
The two of you have a problem with the fact that the Guild is not as well known as you would like.

What suggestions do you have to fix this problem?

What are you personally going to do to help overcome the problem?

[Graysalchemy]

Nothing as I am not a member of the guild and never have been. I have explained my gripes onthis and others and it has nothing to do with the guild not being well known.

[Nigel Nobody]

I am glad it is not just me who thinks like this I thought I was in a minority of one.

I thought this comment was in response to Framerpicture quoting this "99% haven't got a clue who or what they represent,".
Obviously I misunderstood!

[Not your average framer]

I was fortunate enough to have received govenment funded training, which included a six month training placement in the framing workshop of a very well respected and successful major gallery business, with additional funded training with both Mike Royal and Pete Bingham, (both leading guild members). When I finished my training the govenment paid in advance the cost for me to take the GCF exam.

Guess what? That's was seven years ago and I've never taken the exam. I've always been so busy, it is hard to get time away from the business and the nearest place I can take the exam is a very long way from Devon. However, I've never felt at a disadvantage not taking the exam.

So what do I think about the exam. Every professional framer is likely to need the knowledge and understanding required by this exam. It's not a bad starting position for a new framer coming into this industry to study, get trained and take this exam, as I will help to avoid making wrong judgements and making mistakes with customers framing orders.

Taking the exam does not make you any better than most other good or well respected framers, but when you are a new start-up and nobody knows anything about you, it may just help when advertising for business. Does it distinguish you from anyone else? Perhaps, or perhaps not, but at least you bothered to learn enough to take the exam.

I think the real issues on this thread are this:

Do the bottom two levels of framing in the guild's framing standards have any relevence, or would it be beneficial to see them removed?

And although not part of the original thread, the guilds membership levels have fallen in recent years, perhaps some of us might consider if we can give the guild some meaningful answers as to what would persuade more of us consider joining the guild. Who knows it might be the start of something!

[Framerpicture]

The two of you have a problem with the fact that the Guild is not as well known as you would like.

What suggestions do you have to fix this problem?

What are you personally going to do to help overcome the problem?

Nigel, You keep repeating these questions, Its not up to me personally to sort this out!

I have my own business to run

As I see it, if I'm a member of a trade organisation and I pay membership they should help or be some benefit to my business!


if you read my previous posts I at least make a suggestion as how this situation might be improved using the resources the Guild currently have.

Perhaps when the FATG were employing a new CEO the commitee should have considered a PR specialist.

That said, I know very little about the new CEO, but even If I was a member I would have had absolutely no influence on who they employed.

[Graysalchemy]

And although not part of the original thread, the guilds membership levels have fallen in recent years, perhaps some of us might consider if we can give the guild some meaningful answers as to what would persuade more of us consider joining the guild. Who knows it might be the start of something!

I wasn't going to write any more on this matter as some people on here just keep on bringing it to a full circle me included, but I will sum up in response to the above.

I am all for a trade body, one which represents all sectors of the industry and values and respects all the various levels and types of framing in this community for contract jobs up to bespoke conservation and museum standards. I am also in favour of education and I always strive to better what I do with in the constraints of the commercial constraints placed on all of us. I would even go as far as a formal certification, but only one which is worthy and accountable.

However I feel that the guild doesn't support or particularly recognise commercial and contract framers we are seen as pedallers of mass produced poor quality frames which is wholly untrue. Most commercial work has an element of bespoke framing to it. The guild in my opinion has focused to much energy and attention on conservation framing and the five levels of framing even to the extent that there is talk now of removing the bottom two levels which quite frankly would be discrimination against what most commercial and contract framers do and for that matter the bulk of bespoke framers work. When have you ever seen an article or seminar on Budget framing? You won't. I have only ever seen one article on a frame workshop completing a commercial job in the guild magazine. In this case a large order for a hotel, and quite frankly I think the company involved was very lucky to have such a budget, lead time and such organised designers (not the norm).

As I have pointed out on to many occasions the GCF in my opinion is not rigorous enough and not accountable.

At the end of the day the guild is effectively trying to sell us membership, so I believe it is up to the guild to come up with benefits of membership which will attract us. Yes like all good business listen to your customers and plenty of more radical sugestions and criticism's have been put forward but perhaps that is out of years of frustration with the guild that we have resorted to this.

I am not hell bent on guild bashing, contrary to popular belief, I just want to see a guild which will represent me and add value to my business. I have been in the industry for 15 yrs both bespoke and commercial and in that time I have never seen any benefits of guild membership or for that matter been approached by anyone to join. But I have been put off by the attitude of some members, in particular GCF framers on more than one occasion.

As Max Roberts has said the guild isn't going to please everyone or be value to everyone, but at least they could try and use resources to benefit a wider audience, we are a broad church.

[prospero]

Something has just struck me.

It the Fine Art Trade Guild.

It's not the Framing Trade Guild.

[Graysalchemy]

Sorry, that answers it all, they only represent Fine Art Framers then.

Anyway as I said I want a trade association that benefits a wider audience, we are a broad church.

[prospero]

Well that might be slightly unfair. Historically the Guild has championed the interests of the "Art Trade". (whatever the heck that is). Framing is just a small part. E.g. At one time the Guild would validate limited edition prints for publishers. I'm think I'm right in saying that they set the traditional max edition size of 850. If you submitted the prints to the Guild they would inspect every copy and put the Guild embossed stamp on each one. Don't know if they still provide this service. Certainly haven't seen any Guild-stamped prints lately..... The 850 convention went down the tubes years ago. But this was a good thing. During the le print mania of the early nineties there was a lot of, shall we say 'iffy' stuff sold as limited editions. And iffy practices as well. A Guild stamp at least ensured that there wasn't a duplicate edition of the same print being sold abroad were never the twain shall meet.

Just saying that the Guild is not all about framing.


Maybe they ought to instigate a star system like hotels.

[Graysalchemy]

A business associate of mine used to stamp them back in the 80's. They don't do it now though.

[Nigel Nobody]

May I point out that PPFA is all about framing!

In Australia we now have a number of members benefits that have increased over the past few years.

There are some benefits that are financial and some that are business related.
Some of those benefits came as a result of PPFA being under the umbrella of PMA so we inherit their benefits too.
Some benefits we have gained during the past few years have been the result of some work by a dedicated group of members who believe that making a contribution to the organisation and the industry is very important. Other members and the industry in general will benefit from those contributions.

[kev@frames]

A business that promotes itself as "representing the framing industry", even though only a small minority of framers are members, should expect critiscism and comment and suggestions from anybody within the industry which they claim to represent, member or otherwise. Particularly, as pointed out by Alastair and others, when their activities can have a wider ranging impact on the industry as a whole.

To suggest that one should pay a fee to "join", and then try and change the FATG is preposterous.
This is why that suggestion is so ridiculous: The FATG is a business. If it's "product" was right, then more "customers" would buy it (join).

FATG membership suits suppliers of glass, machinery, board and mouldings very well indeed, because they sell stuff to framers.
Arguably it (the FATG Product = membership) does not suit the majority of framing businesses/framers, including many of us who are not members but had been in the past.
When a load of your customers (members) cease using your services you shouild be addressing the issue of whether you have been offering them the right thing, not suggesting that others "join" (and pay, to try and change things from the "inside".
If the FATG continues to claim that it represents the framing industry, they should clarify which part of the industry they mainly represent, which at present looks like the supply/wholesale side. Not much the retail framing side, despite the fact that they are actively trying to recruit retail framers into their membership. Otherwise they would not, at last, be posting on this forum.
Apart from the wholesale/supply side of the business, the only people who I can see have a clear benefit from membership of the FATG are those engaged in the GCF exam, GCF training and associated little earners.

[Max Roberts]

Kev. I have not posted on to this forum to recruit framers. Get that one straight. I came on having been a member of FF since near its inception, but wanting to participate whenever I felt I could offer something positive on a subject I happen to be passionate about. If you and others would prefer me not to contribute, then I'll oblige. Read my posts. I have said that I have no problem with criticism and I said that if you want to change things, you have the opportunity to do so by joining. Don't join though if you feel so strongly against us as you obviously must. For your information the board of directors and the executive represent a very broad section of the industry and a lot more than the framing wholesalers you suggested are the only ones who benefit. I am a gallery/framer/ publishing art director. The treasurer is a specialist publisher, masters warden is an accomplished artist and members warden is ....a framing wholesaler. We spend our meetings discussing the needs of our members and how we can service them and give real value, in what is a none profit making organisation manned by volunteers who give their time freely. We have a paid administrative staff. So you ask who do we represent? We try to represent all. Obviously not very well in your case. So please be specific now. You've told us all the things that you don't like about the Guild, but what do you actually want and not only what do you want, but how would you expect the Guild to deliver? Be specific.

One little point about joining , contributing and changing things from within the Guild and not just sitting outside critisising. Just refer to our friend from Australia's last posting below. He's absolutely right
"Some benefits we have gained during the past few years have been the result of some work by a dedicated group of members who believe that making a contribution to the organisation and the industry is very important. Other members and the industry in general will benefit from those contributions."

[stcstc]

Hey max


As a relative newcomer to this business. kevs analogy of framers being customers is quite apt i guess. Ignoring wether the fatg is a business or not.

But i have a couple of questions for you

Firstly, how many framers in the UK and ireland are members of the fatg?

you said earlier about you get out what you put in, i really agree with this method. so do you mind me asking would you give me some ideas of what business benefits you have gain and maybe the kind of benefits i could gain?

the thing about this forum, like many others i am member of, is they are discussion boards, be it good bad or indifferent, they are all just discussions. I personally welcome the fine input from the guild members, but the benefit as you said before is you gain what you put in, so please dont be put off by either side of any discussion. after all isnt these kind of discussions exactly what the guild need to figure out what their 'Customers' want?

[Nigel Nobody]

To say that the members of a guild or industry organisation are 'customers' just shows that people don't understand much about them!

[stcstc]

why does it

the police here call criminals customers

the social workers call people customers

what i liked about the analogy,is its a bit like use with our customers, we discuss with them about what they want and need and then offer them something

Is that not what unions do and trade organizations?

[kev@frames]

Nigel: you are not a member of the FATG, I was for ten years. They are a business, providing a service, and anyone who pays for a service, or membership, whatever you want to call it, is buying something. I was using the customer analogy to point out that if they want people to "buy" into the FATG, they have to make it look like good value. Your post was admirable only for its brevity and nothing else. Thank you for that. I'm glad we had this little talk.

Max: I was hoping to be constructive.
Firstly I have nothing at all against the present management of the FATG. Or the present organisation, it is what you have inhereited. in fact it looks like you actually want to move the organisation forward. Some people would say not before time.
If you want people who are not members not to critiscise your organisation, you can't say you represent them. Thats all I'm pointing out. That is having your cake and eating it.

I'll ask you: do you represent me? (I am part of "the framing industry") - yes or no? You appear to say you do.

I said quite clearly that the FATG appear to do a good job in representing the supply side of the industry. Was that not a positive comment?

Would a shift towards representing (promoting) the retail side of the industry more be any conflict of interest, actually I don't think so. The supply side would be over the moon if we (retail) were shifting more product.

From the number of contributions and interest in this thread, it's obvious that retail framers actually do want an effective trade organisation. Thats why several forum members have migrated fro mthe FATG to the PPFA.

If people didn't think you were open to suggestions and wanted to listen, they wouldn't be bothered posting comments (constructive or otherwise).

Just becuse the comments are not what you want to hear right now, it does not make them any less valid.

You just have to get your logo out there in front of the public, in any way you can. You have a strong brand within the trade, now make it a strong brand to the consumer. Its easier and cheaper than ever now with social media/ new media.
we are not here for a row about it. We are trying to help you out. Or do you not think we are on the same side?

[Max Roberts]

Hi all. I'm glad that there is so much interest in this thread. Kev, where have I said that I don't want criticism whether from members or none members? You've critcised, fair enough, now tell me specifically what you want from a representative body such as the Guild and how you expect that representative body to deliver.
Do I represent you? I hope so. I am part of the same industry as you and the things I want and care passionately about, are I would assume the same things that you want. I believe that we are trying very hard to set the standards that the industry will aspire to. I believe that we have expertise to call on that is second to none. I believe (and this is in response to another question) that we offer a raft of special offers from advantageous credit card rates, insurance, legal help and others that is as good if not better then most. We have an award winning magazine ABT, a branch network which does offer the great opportunity to network which is what business is all about. We have an extremely informative website www.fineart.co.uk (it's not perfect I know, but we are working on it). We work with organisations such as UKTI for would be international exhibitors. We have a manned telephone line for framer members to ask advice. We arbitrate in membership disputes. We organised the NEC framing seminars etc etc. I hope that answers some of the questions about what we offer. The website will give a better insight of this. How many framer members, I don't have that figure to hand, but probably nearer 1000. Don't quote me on that though.
I certainly want the Guild to represent the retail side and I think that it does try very hard to do so. Could it do more. Probably yes, but we don't have the resources to do all the things we want to. Any marketing campaigns can cost thousands of pounds. We simply haven't got that, but I am trying hard to introduce a much more pragmatic approach to how the guild goes forward. I've mentioned this before. We are a democratic entity with many differing lobbies, but we are moving forward and we do listen. Sorry for going on, but the questions are being fired at me. Tell me if I've missed anything out. I'm happy to continue though! Cheers to all