Framer's Grey Board etc.

[Roboframer]

Anyone use this carp?

If so, what for?

It's pulped newspapers - probably more acid and chemicals in it than neat tree sap!

Masking tape also - and carpet tape - all stuff that lots of suppliers sell, and, in my early days, I used - because I was weaned by my local supplier - Euro Mouldings, and other framers that I met in their showroom.

'Tessa' masking tape was advertised in the Euro catalogue as 'The best we have tested' for hingeing prints and sealing frame backs.

One framer I met actually told me that he only used this stuff for sealimg frames because it was 'TOO GOOD' for fixing artwork, the customer can see this nice tape. But out of sight, to fix prints, he used this fantastically priced stuff from screwfix!!!

Why, in this day and age, do our suppliers still try to sell us carp?

(Edit - a reply from a supplier would be good)

[Not your average framer]

It's great for blunting blades quickly. Any money saved by using greyboard would be cancelled out by the increased cost of blades used to cut the stuff.

[WelshFramer]

One framer I met actually told me that he only used this stuff for sealing frames because it was 'TOO GOOD' for fixing artwork, the customer can see this nice tape. But out of sight, to fix prints, he used this fantastically priced stuff from screwfix!!!

Personally I prefer that silver-coloured duct tape for frame bags -- makes pretty good hinges, too.

Never seen the point of the grey board except as a cutting mat.

[markw]

This business has to a great extent moved forward with many of us using very high quality materials to create a product that we are proud of. I occasionally get in frames that I made when I first started - I cringe at the way I worked - but I was working to a standard that was accepted at the time . I didnt use greyboard then - and I didnt use masking tape.
Why have our standards improved? is it the materials available? The customers expectations? or just our own awareness.

Come on! someone tell me its the FATG setting standards. My personal opinion is that we have access to better quality materials and we want to produce good quality work.

[Merlin]

I will admit to using Greyboard. The super smooth and Neutral PH variety from Wessex

BUT, only for backing/supporting pictures in the browser. If I frame that picture then it gets replaced.

Mark, maybe with the Internet and the various Forums with the many discussion topics on MDF, Greyboard etc, It is us who have set our own standards and high ones at that. Not knocking the FATG, they have worked long and hard to set standards and get everybody together to high light the problems of the past. In fairness I think they did start the ball rolling, so to speak. Those of us with experience have kept that ball rolling by refusing to use the non standard material out there.

However, a Newbie out there, with no knowledge of the problems that we and many others have come across and on a tight start up budget will go for the cheapest options.
An Example
LION Catalogue (sorry Martin H). Page 45 states Grey Board is excellent for backing pictures. Pulp Board also excellent for backing pictures.

Now is that backing for display (browsers) or for backing in a frame?

So a Newbie will read that, look at the price GB @ £1.06 sheet versus Art-Bak Con @ £2.60 sheet and probably think that because it says that GB is excellent for backing pictures and is half the price, then why not go for the cheapest option. We have all done it.

Through the many books, forums with Q & A sessions we can educate. You cannot teach experience!

[beth]

I recently had a Framed and mounted print in for re framing, the print was stuck to the mount using thick ‘warning warning danger tape’ (yellow and black stripy tape). If this is the lastest standard I am really behind the times

i think the changing standards of framing are partially based the type of art customers are now investing in, some many people now ask for conservation framing.
When I started framing it was people mainly brought in poster now it is mainly original art, limited editions antique prints etc .., although there are plenty of framers out there who dont care and push out rubbush work
there is no excuse as there is so much information available which explains the pros and cons of framing techniques.

[kev@frames]

we used cheap greyboard for a short while when we were selling a lot of bulk cheap mounts to ebay resellers.
its a very poor backing (slip mat) on the cmc too. So all in all its something that we have no time, space or use for.

but we do use frequently use scotch 3m pressure sensitive tape for fitting pics to mounts in budget work.

[osgood]

The words "framer's" and "grey board" (in the title of this topic) should never be linked together in one sentence!

An oxymoron like:
Government Organization
Alone Together
Living Dead
Plastic Glasses
Tight Slacks
Peace Force
Pretty Ugly
Head Butt
Working Vacation
Tax Return
Virtual Reality
Jumbo Shrimp
Microsoft Works
British Intelligence

[Martin Harrold]

In our catalogue, we take very great care to describe each product fairly and accurately. From those descriptions, professional framers should be able to make their own choices, based on their own requirements. If anyone disagrees with anything in any of the descriptions, then we are always happy to listen, and if we've slipped up in some way, we'll make a correction as soon as possible.

There are something like 140,000 words in the Lion catalogue, and we review and correct on an on-going basis. I agree that grey board has limited applications in quality framing - but always remember that within the wider framing industry, the great majority of frames are not done to conservation standard. Many cheap framed posters are adequately framed using grey board. However, I can tell you that there is a steady trend towards better quality materials within the bespoke market.

The fact is that as framers become more educated and informed, then they want more and more information about products to help them make their choices. This extra detail can often not be accomodated within the pages of the catalogue, so we have an on-going programme to post special info pages on our website which can be clicked on when you go to a product. This has turned out to be rather larger and more complex task than we envisaged, but results should start to show over the next two years.

An interesting special case is our conservation tapes section. To help guide framers in their selection, some years ago we set our own quality levels, 1, 2 and 3. We asked outside experts to rate the products and where there was no consensus, we used the lowest grading. Even with 'white glove' experts, there will always be disagreement regarding the merits of high-end self-adhesive tapes such as those from Neschen. However, we have the greatest respect for all the work that our friend Barry Leveton GCF is doing on the tapes issue for FATG, and although we'll sometimes argue our corner from a technical or commercial standpoint, we'll generally defer to his expert views.

On mountboard, we introduced the quality ratings, before they were ratified by the FATG. We believe that, like those of the tapes, the ratings help framers quickly make an informed choice. We are occasionally bloody minded and opiniated and we really believe that there is a slot for our 3A and 3B grades. There is no doubt in my mind that a board that just slips out of being graded Conservation because of a technical detail related to the 48hr water test, (3A), is a far better board than one with a core containing lignin (3B). We do not know whether the FATG will ever recognise this difference.

Remember, fish is on the menu at most restaurants, but many people don't choose fish.

[osgood]

Martin,

If anyone disagrees with anything in any of the descriptions, then we are always happy to listen, and if we've slipped up in some way, we'll make a correction as soon as possible.

It sounds like you have a good policy there!

I agree that grey board has limited applications in quality framing - but always remember that within the wider framing industry, the great majority of frames are not done to conservation standard. Many cheap framed posters are adequately framed using grey board.

I totally disagree with you that "grey board has limited applications in quality framing". It really has absolutely no application in good or high quality framing. It might have a place in low or bad quality framing.

Something I don't understand is why it is used at all in any framing. Surely standard quality foamboard or coreflute is not much more costly to buy and doesn't have anything like the quantity of acid in it. I can't think of one benefit it has over any other type of backing material.

Down here in Australia, I would be surprised if more than a couple of percent of framers use it. I haven't actually seen it in used a frame for seven or eight years now. The few people I knew used it regularly stopped using it years ago.

Perhaps if suppliers stopped selling it, framers would stop using it and use something that is slightly better.

I still have customers bringing in matted artwork form Europe and UK that are backed with this disgusting grey stuff and the mats are not much better. My customers are quite often shocked and disappointed when I tell them that their newly acquired artwork will show visible damage in the near future unless they have it changed. They don't understand why an artist or framer would use such poor quality materials.

[Merlin]

Martin, thank you for your reply. I agree with everything that you have said. I have no problem with your catalogue or your stock and stock descriptions. I have an acccount with you.

You are absolutely right in that 'professional framers should be able to make their own choices, based on their own requirements'.
A professional framer will know your catalogue inside out, will know what he wants and will order it, very rarely will he/she read the product description. On the other side a Newbie will have asked many people as to who the good framing suppliers are. Your name will come to the top or very near the top of that list everytime. So young Newbie will pick up your catalogue and will read and believe your words, as in 'Excellent for backing' pictures. Then they will use it, mainly because it is cheaper but also have made that informed choice from the information given.

You have done an excellent job with grading mount board - thank you for that. How about a grading system now for backing boards please.

[Roboframer]

Thanks for joining in Martin, if any one supplier can help set standards, raise awareness and influence framers, new and old, lion can.

BUT

So young Newbie will pick up your catalogue and will read and believe your words.

This is exactly my point.

Carpet tape is NOT OK for stretching needlework and nor is copydex.

Hayaku "be safe - use the best" OK it's good, but it is NOT the best.

It's the best according to the FATG as well (not necc that brand, but 'gummed')

Not singling lion out, plenty of other suppliers sell the same stuff, just think that some stuff should come with a warning.

Regards grey board, I see two main types of work backed with it - ie against the artwork.

1. Cheap ephemeral stuff that will probably fade long before the nasty board eats it.

2. Antique stuff from antique stuff dealers - OK some of it is only antique because it has been ripped out of an old 'Punch' mag, but also quality - maps, engravings, etchings, watercolours. The dealer doesn't give one - no way does he want to employ a framer, cutting mounts and fixing work with cheap tape is not rocket science, now, what is the cheapest way to do this .......he wants to sell prints (etc) the rest is pure presentation; presentation is easy.

Some of this stuff comes to the likes of me and 99.9% of the time it gets replaced, but a lot goes to framers who don't come here, or TFG, and don't subscribe to ABT or TPB.

They have seen, in black and white that certain stuff is OK for certain jobs, the buck doesn't stop at them.

[Roboframer]

Remember, fish is on the menu at most restaurants, but many people don't choose fish.

But some that do have a bad reaction to it!

(it was CARP!!!)

Sorry!

[osgood]

Hayaku "be safe - use the best" OK it's good, but it is NOT the best.

I can understand the manufacturer making statements like that, because they want to sell their product and they don't always care if they deceive consumers, but if a supplier of products to the industry is stating similar things in their catalogues, I think they are contributing to the deception.

Unwise.......... especially to newcomers to the industry! (as others have said)

[Paul Hardy]

Anyone object to using masking tape to seal the edges of glass/mount/backboard package prior to putting into the frame?

Paul Hardy

http://www.sudbury-picture-frames.co.uk

[WelshFramer]

Anyone object to using masking tape to seal the edges of glass/mount/backboard package prior to putting into the frame?

Paul Hardy

http://www.sudbury-picture-frames.co.uk

I was taught to do that but I don't do it for two reasons:

1. It's messy -- particularly if you need to remove it later

2. Why stick masking tape into the product when everything else is conservation-grade material?

I always seal the package with Filmoplast P90. It's, thin, easy to handle and is always available on the bench as I use it for standard hingeing and other purposes. OK, it maybe costs more than masking tape and it probably adds 2 pence to the cost of a frame but, what the heck, I a generous sort of guy and cary that cost myself.

[Roboframer]

Masking tape is for temporary use, mask off an area you don't want paint on, paint the area, remove tape to leave a neat line, throw tape away.

Has no place in or outside of any framing job IMO.

If you have some, read last three words of first paragraph!

[Martin Harrold]

Well, all, thanks for all that feedback. Some simple responses:

- Grey board: Points noted and I think that we'll change the caption to read " . . . . OK for backing low-value pictures, etc " That should please most, but probably not all.

- Backing board grading system:That's rather tricky, because even many of the 'white glove' brigade accept that provided you put a piece of museum or conservation quality card between the picture and the backing board, almost any backing board can be acceptable. I'll be at the FATG Awards do next week, and in between slurps of Australia's finest, I'll chat to a few people about the idea.

- Hayaku: I'm totally mystified by the comments on that. It really is the very best water gum on the very best Japanese paper. Can anyone explain why that is not acceptable for T-hinging the finest art ? The only thing which might be better is wheat starch paste on the same type of paper. But the effective difference is minimal.

[osgood]

Martin,
Perhaps I'm not qualified to comment or offer you any advice on anything, but I have a big problem with a supplier proposing that a particular product is "OK for backing low-value pictures, etc". This is a recommendation and for people new to the industry or someone who is unwilling to learn about preservation it means that they will continue on using it indefinitely. In my humble opinion it has no place in any frame.

This product is such low grade, chock full of lignin and acid that it will begin to discolour paper that is against it in a very, very short time. Why would anyone want to inflict that on even the poorest quality "picture" so that it has a much shorter life than the owner expects!

The fact that you are "mystified" about gummed Hyaku tape is an indication that your knowledge of preservation materials could be improved so that you can give informed advice to your customers.

I can see by the fact that you participate in this discussion that you are genuinely interested in the industry and I'm quite sure that with very little effort you could become an expert in this area.

PPFA and FACTS are both great organisations to gain knowledge. The Fine Art Trade Guild in UK is also a good place to gain information, although there are a few areas where they are a bit controversial.

Cooked starch paste is the recommended top level adhesive for hinging.

I think the main problem that some framers have is that they are driven by nothing else but price!
This is what leads to them only wanting to buy the cheapest product they can find, rather than buying the product that costs a few cents more, but is much better quality. They sometimes lose sight of the fact that they need to pass on that extra cost to the customer. It doesn't come out of their profit they make more profit!

eg. I know many framers who do not even offer UV glass to their customers let alone AR or Museum, "because it costs so much!" Yikes!!!

[Lemon_Drop]

I would like to thank Martin for taking part in this post, unlike some of the other wholesalers on here, who lurk on the sidelines.

The main reason I think that the Lion Catalogue is being mentioned at all , is because it has become the bible of products that are available on the market in western Europe, which says alot for the company.

I would have a question mark over some of the products in that catalogue,
and its Lion just repeating what the manufactures of the products do.
Well at least they got Barry Leveton GFC to sort the tapes out. To be honest I dont know anything about Barry at all. The GFC letters tell me hes a framer, not at conservator and a conservator is what you really need to sort the claims, not Lions claims, but that of the tape manufactures.

Its at times such as this you have to turn to people at the top of their profession.
If you want to know about hand finished frames in Europe, or for that matter in the world you turn to our own Waynot on this forum, whos work in that field leaves everyone else in the shade.

When its comes to conservation matters, you get the best also, and the best is Hugh Phibbs, its a good place to start if you want to learn about conservation matters, is to read what he has written about the subject over the years, he can be found on The Grumble.

I wont even bother to address that issue of Greyboard, because my views are the same as everyone on here, the product is rubbish.

The adhesive in Hayaku hinging tape is soluble nylon, the other one is made up of 100% Wheat Starch. Only one is considered to be Museum quality, the other one Conservation.

One of the main problems with products is that the manufacturers claim of what it cant do on its packaging do not add up, and it has been proven with various court cases on the other side of the ocean, and wholesalers just repeat their claims.