Deeper Rebates / Barefaced Mouldings?

[SquareFrames]

Hi All,

This old chestnut again!

I think the time has come to start putting pressure on the moulding manufacturers / suppliers to get deeper rebates on the moulding. Not enough time is spent on lobbying them, and they tend to push it under the carpet when any furore dies down, and its nearly always forgotten about.

An example of what I was doing today:

1 X Pastel painting
1 X Undermount (Conservation board-1500 micron)
1 X Double mount (Conservation baord-1500 micorn X 2 = 3000 micron)
1 X 5mm Foam Core board
1 X 2mm Float Glass
1 X 3mm MDF

All adds up to 14 1/2 mm to go inside an 8mm rebate

Even if the rebate was 14 1/2 or 15mm it would still be difficult to get a professional finish on the back of the job, and the client insisted on the use oif that particular moulding, so I had to use clips to hold the package in and then tape it up, not as professional as I would have liked, but, hey what can you do? This job would have been an awful lot easier if the rebate was a standard 16mm or larger. OK you will get jobs where a deep rebate is not normally required, but that would be up to us to provide the moulding choice for our clients.

Does it cost more to make the rebate deeper, I would'nt have thought so, but I stand to be corrected, and if it does cost a touch more, would we not pass that onto our clients anyhow?

Also, here is another one. Why cant the moulding manufacturers not provide a barefaced moulding of any of their finished ranges? This would allow us to offer the clients the exact colour / pattern, etc. by hand finishing, they require in the profile that they want. After all, all moulding starts off as barefaced....does'nt it?

Something to ponder on and if enough replies were posted we could maybe send off the results to the manufacturers and see what happens. Surely its worth a try?

Steven
(Square Frames)

[John]

I know it doesn't address the issues you have raised Stephen, but for the odd job you can extend the depth of rebate of any profile by up to 12mm with a product called Rabbetspace. Going by the spelling, it probably isn't a British product, but I know it can be supplied in the UK by Lion. To see a picture have a look here - http://www.frametek.com/HTML/RabbetSpace/

I expect that for every framer, like yourself, who wants a deeper rebate, there are probably ten who would prefer the cheaper price of the shalow profile. So the manufacturers are simply following the law of supply and demand and giving us framers what we want.

I agree with you, it is odd that the more popular profiles are not also offered as bare wood. However, we hardly ever do any hand finishing. Most of our bare wood is in the form of scoops, which we paint and use to make box frames. Sadly, we have found a lot of customer resistance to the prices we have to charge in order to make hand finishing economically viable, so over the years we have come to do less and less, and finally just stopped offreing it as an option to our customers.

[Dermot]

Could you design the package into a simple plan/barefaced moulding with a deep rabbet…. and then cap it with the moulding of choice…….play around with stacking some mouldings…..you will be surprised what you can end up with….just an idea I’m working on at the moment…

I have just recently got the Frame Tek brochure which has a small sample of the RabbetSpace…it looks very good…Oh and all the Frame Tek products meet FACTS standards…which can only be good for those who framing to Preservation standards………Lion are the nearest distributor for Frame Tek though they will ship direct from the US…….the Frame Tek web site is very good well worth a visit… www.frametek.com

Rgs

[markw]

Moulding reps hate me! the first thing I look at - feel is the rebate - not only are they often too shallow, they are freqently not wide enough.

You cant say that price dictates the depth, many of the more expensive mouldings have shallow rebates. You can, and I am sure we all do, extend the back, but in my opinion it always compromises a proffesional finish.

I am not sure how you would lobby moulding suppliers / manufacturers - very little is made in the UK and for the rest we must be a small market.

You would think that this would be an obvious focus point for the Fine Art Trade Guild, and despite regular grumbles in the trade journals its never picked up - perhaps the suppliers have too much influence. If you frame a limited edition print - in a double mount with hinged back + backing board you will not get the whole lot in the average frame rebate - If FATG mad a serious point about framing standards they should establish this as a minimum required depth and be encouraging manufacturers to work to this as a minimum standard.

Lobbying has to start at the level of the self appointed watchdog of standards in our industy ( I use the term self appointed because the FATG dont represent the majority of framers - as they arent members and probably never will be while the membership fee is so expensive). Is it a coincidence that the majority of moulding suppliers are members of the FATG? - I always end up ranting about the FATG.

For now i will always moan at the poor old rep who shows me the latest shiny new moulding - ask him how the hell he thinks we can fit all the bits required into the 6mm left us (glass - mount - backing - basic standard framing FATG) and hope that he reports back that the rebates not deep enough - The reply to moan is almost always - "yes, I know - your not the first to complain, but i have never yet seen a moulding change to accomodate a deeper rebate, but i have seen them get shallower.

I wonder if we could get any of the bigger suppliers to add a comment to this forum - beware the next rep through my door is in for a hard time.

[SquareFrames]

MarkW,

I agree with you, the FATG should be doing the lobbying for the business as a whole to concur with their standards, and I do know that Pete Bingham and Mary Evans (both Framers Committee members) brought this subject up in an issue of Picture Business a few months back, but I am unsure of how their crusade is going, I will find out form Pete when next I talk with him.

The standards the Guild have set are super, up to the point where nothing fits, and although 2 of the postings recommned Rabbetspace, I have tried that, and 'I feel' that the total professional finish is not achieved, therefore making the standard I have framed to null and void. It maybe an excellent product, but as I say, I am not a firm believer in it.

I will write an article for the ABT, the next issue is out next week, so I fear it will be the Autum one now, and see if (a) I can get it published and (b) see what the moulding manufacturers have to say. Cost at this stage should not be a factor, as we will pass on any small increase onto our clients.

Steven
(SquareFrames)

[Merlin]

Likewise, we too have tried the Rabbetspace and as Steven says , it just doesnt look professional.
I much prefer framespace by ARQADIA - sorry at home so do not have the number - it comes in 1/4 inch, 1/2 inch and 1 inch steps.
so handy for the well packed conservation work and also for box frames.

[Underpinner]

While we are on the subject of what moulding manufacturers should be supplying, could I make a further suggestion? In my experience there is less demand for mouldings with gold rebate edges than there was a few years ago - but quite often a particular moulding would be ideal if it had no gold edge. Would it not be a good idea for manufacturers to produce the same mouldings both with and without the gold?
As regards moulding height; in my opinion 12mm ought to be an absolute minimum now for use by bespoke framers - and a minimum rebate width of 8mm on any moulding that might be used for framing paintings on canvas (we are supposed to allow space within the frame for tightening the canvas later).
Moulding suppliers might consider stocking plain wood (as well as actual barefaced mouldings) around 6-8mm thick by various widths (15mm and 25mm are useful) and in, say, 2 metre lengths. A few years ago I came across a similar thing but wedge-shaped in cross section: The pointed end of the wedge could hide behind the rebate while the thick end was wide enough to take whatever hardware the frame needed. Something like this would be useful.
I do wonder sometimes whether those who buy stock for our suppliers (or who direct their own manufacture) give enough thought to what framers actually do and what they need to do it. Certainly some correlation with the requirements of the FATG's framing standards would be a good start.

[SquareFrames]

Hi John,

I agree, suppliers should be producing what, we the framers need and want. I actually prefer to get a moulding without a gold sight edge, and if one is required, I can add it when I am asked.

I also agree that the Guild should be asking the suppliers to ensure their moulding stack up to their standards, after all one goes hand in hand with the mountboard suppliers, etc. so why not mouldings? This would give me something to tackle the Guild about (a new crusade, Rosie will be pleased)

Talk soon,

Steven

[markw]

Steven - you started this topic with the phrase - "this old chestnut again" - accurate in your assumption that most framers get niggled at the lack of rebate depth / width. For the FATG to have ignored this for so many years is pretty poor - especially as some of the influential framers within the "system" have made critical remarks on this point. I hope Rosie Sumner picks up on your crusade and puts the full weight of Guild Standards behind it - but I wont hold my breath as their are too many interested partys from the manufacturing industry to allow an expensive change to be forced upon them.

if i look at the range of smaller mouldings on my sample boards i am pushed to find many with rebates deeper than 7mm - some have only 5mm - given the choice i would bin them - but many are popular mouldings - and customers ask for them - you know the little brown one with a gold edge.

I suppose the real point is why do the manufacturers not listen to us - it must be that we dont shout loud enough - so next time that rep comes through the door - join me in giving him a hard time - every time he gets a shallow rebate moulding out of his case - i also give them a hard time on deep rebate mouldings with shallow shoulders, new range from Ashworth and Thompson - lovely deep rebate - 30mm - good finish - ideal for canvases - BUT you have 6mm shoulder to hide the slightly out of square - marks from previous frame etc etc - you have no chance - so you have to ask the rep - who designed this and was it with framing a picture in mind or purely as a decorative shape - it cant cost more to remove a few more millimeteres of wood - and why hasnt the buyer for that supplier said - this wont go down well with my customers - make it deeper before we buy.

I will ask a couple of suppliers to comment.

[SquareFrames]

MarkW

Hi Mark,

I am not sure whether the FATG would have any 'real' say and influence over the manufacturers, over deeper rebates, BUT I do agree they have not put enough pressure on them to ensure that FATG standards are met, or maybe its better put, 'allowed to be met' (Does that make sense?) Maybe if they went along this track, things could change?

The mountboard manufaturers were only too happy to be asked to get involved with the changing FATG standards, and make their product in compliance with them, infact they were also most influential in the standards being agreed and thus, set. I do know that mountboard manufacturers are always striving to make their product 'better' and therefore more and more boards now meet and some are far and away above the standard set. It would be good if the moulding manufacturers set aside the 'price' factor and got together with FATG and actually listened to them and also the majority of framers, who buy the product.

I also agree that there are many influencial people with the FATG system, and I do they have been campaigning for many years, some mouldings have changed, many have not, its the many that need changed.

I do hope Rosie and ABT take up the letter I have written. I await with bgated breath.

Steven
(SquareFrames)

[markw]

Steven
I doubt that the moulding manufacturers would be influenced - for the simple reason that few manufacture in the UK. I did ask A&T to make a comment - but they are obviously shy - shame because they do manufacture some of their own mouldings, and it would be interesting to have an insight into their decision making process. I, like many other framers will keep the pressure up to deepen those rebates

If a forum can have any effect it will be that its read by those with influence on decisions - even if they dont post .

[SquareFrames]

MarkW,

Is it possible to send the manufacturers copies of these postings, so that they can see what people think, although as you say, they probably would not be influenced by the postings of a few, but it could, just could light a spark...somewhere deep in the recesses of a manufacturers mind.

I for one for always striving to obtain the highest standard possible, and will do whatever it takes to keep my clients happy, and therrfore returning, time and time again. I also am not that naive and know there are many, many framers out there who just want to get an order, make a frame and get paid for it, thank god there are many not like that, but the moulding manufacturers seem (in my opinion) to be opting for cheaper rather than quality to facilitate the framers who dont aspire to what you and I and the rest of the members of this forum aspire to.

One can only battle with what seems to the best of a bad situation, and keep trying to change someone's mind.

Steven
(SquareFrames)

[Underpinner]

There are not enough of us yet in this forum to have any collective influence but it seems to me that the manufacturers would probably argue that framers in general are already telling them loud and clear what we want, simply by ordering it from them. If people will buy shallow mouldings then the suppliers will continue to supply them (though what a bespoke framer is supposed to make, and profit from, using 5mm deep rebates is a mystery to me).
We need to kill of the shallow end of the range by not buying those mouldings and thus, perhaps, encourage makers and suppliers to improve their range of deeper mouldings. I recently ceased to use a moulding supplier that I had been with for nine years simply because they seemed to have a fetish about having gold rebate edges on as many mouldings as possible - and were far too busy trying to push their latest special offers to listen to my needs in relation to the way I manage my business.
It would be interesting to hear from suppliers on this topic if only to find out to what extent they are aware of what we need, and to discover what the problems are from their point of view.

[SquareFrames]

Hi All,

I have written the email re this subject to the FATG (Rosie) and CC'd it to the Chairman of the Framers Committee, I await their reply.

I have also been in contact with Arqadia (I emailed them as I use 99% of my mouldings from them) and they have assured me that my email has been sent to their purchasing manager and will be taken seriously and that I will get frequent updates. They know that framers want deeper rebates and have slowly introduced some into their range, but not enough. The ones I see are basically in the barefaced, ash, etc. range of products, which is all well and good, but it needs to be intrdced across the entire range in the future.

I have also hinted at making more of their range available in the barefaced section, this would enable us that hand finish to make sure the client is entirely happy and not just happy. Arqadia have recently introduced more barefaced mouldings but again, not in the profiles that some clients would like. This will also be looked at.

I agree with John, we need to get shot of the shallow rebates, but I fear that not all framers are as professional as ourselves, and would therefore dictate this side of the market, and I also agree that there are not enough members of this forum as yet to make a difference, but with any luck that will change as we get more members.

Once I get a reply from the Guild, I will post it here, and hopefully the article can be published in ABT next time, it wont be next weeks issue but the one after that.

Talk soon

Steven
(Square Frames)

[Merlin]

We had the 'Euro Moulding' rep in today. So following on from this thread, I gave him just a little 'ear ache' on the rebate size of some of his mouldings.
Well, out came the examples. Lo and behold some with 12 mm rebates. Plus a lot of barefaced woods with really deep rebates - 25 mm plus.

From the conversation that took place, I do believe they are getting the message but wether they are putting it into action, that remains to be seen.

Also, watch this space for Wallbuddies. They are actively chasing www.wallbuddies.com, with the hope of becoming the first supplier in the UK for this hanging system. At long last

[reynard]

Try Rose and Hollis in London for deep rebated mouldings.They are the best for plain woods in the country by a mile.

Forget about Arqadia.They dont #### # ##### and #### #### mostly.

[SquareFrames]

FAO reynard,

If you read all the postings carefully on this subject, we are not talking about barefaced mouldings and their deep rebates, we are actually talking about getting ALL the moulding manufacturers to get rid of shallow rebates, and have a minimum of 15 -16 mm.

Hopefully if you are as professional in your workshop, you want the same, or can you deal with every customer with a barefaced, deep rebated moulding from Rose & Hollis? Fair play to you if you can........

Steven

[Guest]

lol!

I probably could actually...