Re newbie mount cutting woes - please help

[washy21]

Hi All

I'm new to the forum. Basically, I'm a photographer and teacher of art and I made the decision a few weeks ago to invest in a secondhand mountcutter for my own ue and for use with my students.

I plummed for a used Keencut Laser pro which looks a good machine and all seem to be working fine.

But - I simply can't cut a decent mount. I've read the manual many times and I'm sure that it's calibrated okay. It always seems to fall short of the corners and yet the blade appears to me to overcut on the backboard by an amount which I would think was okay. Also when I measure the cut margins they are exactly as required. In fact it is only the corners of the dropout that I can't manage - it's bugging me.

In addition there seems to be hooking at the start of the cut, but on inspection of the head movement it seems as though all is fine.

Any advice hints and tips would be most gratefully received. I'm at the point whereby I'm going to sell the machine.

Thanks

[prospero]

Never used this make of machine but there should be some fine adjustment on the stops. If you use mainly the same thickness of board you should prctice on some scraps and tweak the adjustments until you get a perfect corner. Once set, they should never need setting again. (unless you let some heavy handed individual abuse it). Also, the blade depth is critical. It should only just score the undermat (You are using an undermat aren't you?). And don't be afraid to put a fresh blade in. Blades are cheaper than mountboard.

The hooking problem is all in the wrist action. When grasping the cutter head there is a tendancy to twist the head, which means the blade starts in the wrong track. As soon as the blade moves it turns slightly to follow the correct track. Which is how you get the hook. Like most things, it takes a bit of practice. Grasp the cutter head gently and push in the blade. Try to keep your arm in line with the bar as you pull back. Pretend you are doing Tai Chi. Smooth and relaxed.
It takes a bit of practice but soon becomes second nature.

If you still have probs it may be that something is badly worn. On some cutters there are adjustments to compensate for worn bearings, but I am not familiar with this particular machine.

[Roboframer]

It always seems to fall short of the corners and yet the blade appears to me to overcut on the backboard by an amount which I would think was okay. ..........In addition there seems to be hooking at the start of the cut, but on inspection of the head movement it seems as though all is fine.

Not sure what a backboard is but for overcuts and undercuts - measure them - so if say you want a margin of 80mm but the blade is coming in at 85mm (an undercut) - adjust the scale, which should slide, to what it is giving you - 85mm - on the stop and then move the stop back to 80mm.

As for hooked corners - several reasons - are you using a slip mat?

Is the blade too deep? Cut a mount and check how far the blade goes into the slip mat - should be a scratch - half a millimetre. 'Stabbing' the blade in also can cause hooking. Try a single edged blade too - sharp side facing out - ie away from the aperture.

Welcome to the forum.

[washy21]

Thanks for the replies.

I have been using a slipmat - but maybe the blade depth is wrong. In addition (and don't slap my wrists) I'm using stanley blades - the person who sold it me said that they were identical.

Does anyone else uses stanley blades - is this perhaps my problem as well.

I will try again and report back.

John

[Roboframer]

Ta daaaaaa!

Scroll down this page from Lion - lots of different rectangular blades - only one for the logan but ring them and they'll let you know which others fit if any.

I use the persona single edged on a Keencut.

[osgood]

I'm using stanley blades - the person who sold it me said that they were identical.

Tennis racquets are for tennis, cricket bats are for cricket, masking tape is for masking, matcutter blades are for..............???????

Basically, you probably would have been better off getting a professional framer to cut your mats for you and permit them make a living doing what they have trained do!

[washy21]

Basically, you probably would have been better off getting a professional framer to cut your mats for you and permit them make a living doing what they have trained do!

LOL, Well, I can't say I disagree with you in principle, but we all have to start somewhere, and I suspect that most peoples early attempts may not have been that great either. I've played guitar profesionally but of course at first I couldn't play a chord and I certainly wouldn't put others off trying.

With regards to the stanley blades - I didn't mean to sound like a total idiot or belittle the skill that you guys have, but I'm fairly sure that the blades are in fact to all intents and purposes the same as the keencut (I will check it out). They fit 100 percent perfectly into the cutter, and so please don't think I have just rammed any old blade in the machine.

So, I will try again and report back.

[Roboframer]

Look - Stanley blades - are we talking about the same thing?

Stanley blades fit in stanley knives - the top is shorter than the bottom - yes? (What's the name for that shape 'trapezoid or summut?')

NOT (generally) FOR BEVELLED MOUNT CUTTING - OK!

Use the rectangular ones - yes the Stanleys fit and they certainly do have their uses - but just because keencut make that shape, as well as Stanley, does not mean you have the right blade. You may have not 'rammed any old blade' in - but - trust me - you have rammed the wrong one in - I've given you the link - use it!

You give it 'I don't mean to belittle the skills that you guys have, but ...."

BUT? ...... what do you mean 'but'?




USE


RECTANGULAR


BLADES


God I hope you're a better teacher than a student!

[washy21]

Thanks Roboframer:

Firstly: Have a look at the Keencut blades (080) on that page link you sent. They are 'exactly' the same size, shape and profile as Stanley blades - Keencut blades are not rectangular and I would put money on them being manufactured in the same foundry as Stanley or in another foundry making Stanley blades under licence - in fact because I feel as though I've been a tad ridiculed here I will investigate this further and hopefully have the last laugh on this one. Of course if I'm wrong I'll crawl back here and beg for mercy

When I said I don't want to belittle you guys I sincerely meant it and if that remark, made in my previous post came across flipantly you have my apologies. The BUT (and I didn't use capitals to shout) which I should have expanded upon is my opinion that we are all students at all times of our lives. Most of us at varying times attempt skills that we are perhaps not ready for -- web design is a good example - be honest how many of you highly skilled craftsmen have not placed your business design or photography needs in the hands of professionals and had a go yourself for better or for worse. Or if you have placed your promotional requirements in the hands of a designer was it a real craftsman or a mac monkey ?

At the moment I'm giving up a lot of my free time to help a bunch of adults to get to grips with digital photography, completely free of charge. Some of them are making a complete hash of it and yet I'm not shouting back at them or ridiculing them in the way I feel I have been on my very first and yes perhaps naive post.

I went into teaching (and yes, I'm actually a very well respected, successful and patient teacher - I can give you references if you want) because I believe in the sharing of knowledge and skills.

As for being a good student - yes, I think I am - I've an exemplorary students. Apart from receiving the higest grades possible in both undergraduate and postgraduate study, plus many professional qualifications in a previous profession I have not had a day off work/student attendance for the last 9 years, so I hope you accept that you are not dealing with some jerk who has shown up here to cause trouble - on the contrary, if any of you guys want help with photography or graphic design feel free to contact me.

Surely not everyone who joins this forum is a threat to your profession. As mentioned in my original post - I want to learn how to mount cut to help my students produce better work and for my own enjoyment so that I can mount the 15 or so images I produce a year.

The stanley blade issue:

I accept that that must have come across badly when I mentioned it in my original post and I can understand why. The fact is that when I bought this machine - the seller was cutting perfect mounts with stanleyblades (which are rectangular) and he demonstrated it right in front of my eyes with stanley blades in the machine. I took him on his word that stanley blades were a perfect replacement and he said that he used keencuts propietry brand with no noticebale difference. Maybe, I was naive there, and I'm going to order some keencut blades this morning and will report back.

Anyway, I'm sorry for going completely off topic and sharing my feelings. I feel as though that within hours of joining this forum I have been shouted down and warned off and of course that is bound to make me a tad angry.

roboframer - your remark about me being a better student than teacher I really find quite childish considering you have no idea who I am or what I want to achieve. I could turn that around and ask if when customers enter your shop do you shout at them the same way as you did at me with your use of red capitals.

I do hope you will accept me into the forum, I'm not a troll and I want to learn. If however I'm going to be considered an intruder then I will leave.

[prospero]

washy.
If I remember rightly, the older Keencut mc's did use Stanley knife blades for bevel cutting.
The current models all use rectangular blades. It may be that your model won't be able to use rectangular blades.

I you are intending to cut a lot of mounts I would seriously consider putting the one you have on E-Bay and investing in a newer (or new) model. Mountcutters are expensive pieces of kit, but it may be that you don't need all the bells and whistles on the top model. Keencut do a 'Artist' model in three sizes for about £400 new.

I remember mortgaging my soul to buy a C&H 48" one, which was about £800 20 years ago. It still works good as new today and it must have paid for itself many times over.

[markw]

Keencut blades are rectangular - the shape would help stop the point flexing and therfore hooking. You also need to make sure that you have good free movement in the head - all actions should be nice and smooth.

I wish more teachers would take the time to cut proper mounts - it might well make your students realise how important it is to mount their work properly.

I don't know if there's a framer locally who can show you how to calibrate your machine - its like most things - once shown its dead easy, but until then it looks impossible. You could also phone Keencut - they will talk you through any problems.

[Framing Norah]

Hi Washey21,

You are very welcome on this forum.

It seems to be a rule, that every public forum attracts at least a couple of know-it-all braying asses. As you have discovered The Framers Forum is no exception.

While everyone seems reluctant to speak out against such poor manners (why?), you will find that few here support such bad behaviour.

Full marks for your reasoned, mature response.

[washy21]

Thanks for the support:

prospero - that seems like a good idea. It is an older model that I have and this morning I confirmed with keencut that Stanley blades are in fact perfectly useable and in my particular model are identical - so the seller of this machine as it turns out was as honest and genuine as he appeared.

I would agree wholeheartedly that students of art should learn to cut mounts properly and whilst I actually teach photography and graphics I need to learn myself - hence joining this forum.

In reality I should have known better. I thought that it was going to be fairly easy, but of course it's not and just as I harp on about my graphics students not understanding the skill and craft in letterpress printing I perhaps did underestimate the skill in cutting mounts.

I think that I did come across in my original post as being a bit condesending and that's just the fault of internet communication channels and time (suppose I should have used emoticons)

Anyway, I went into my local framers with my big pack of mountboards today and they have agreed to cut the apertures for me for a reasonable sum.

I'm not giving up though - I think I will sell my keencut and invest in something newer.

Anyone want to buy a keencut.

[Mark Thornton]

The older mountcutters did indeed use "Stanley type" blades and some of the members here should bear in mind that just because theirs doesn't use them it doesn't mean nobody elses does.
Washy 21, i know you've read the manual but ive attached a scanned page from the manual that may help you.



Speak to either Lion Tel: 0121 7731230 or Framers Equipment 01604 790333 if you do require some blades.

[markw]

Washy 21 didnt explain he was in to collecting antique mountcutters.

I would suspect that you could use the rectangular blades and benefit from their greater rigidity at the cutting point.

Washy21 - if your cutter is very old then you may have to check bearing play and just straightforward wear. I recall the first mountcutter I used being a very hit and miss affair when it came to calibration - relying more on your ability to judge the right point than to set a calibrated point. New machines are very easy to set up and give consistently first class results.

[kev@frames]

i used to have a laser.
first mountcutter we got, and lasted a few years till it was worn our beyond repair.
for general purpose, and getting the hang of it, you want to use 080 keencut blades. Make sure the head is not loose on the slide bearing (the wedge shaped piece) and just adjust where you stand, keep your arm level with the cut, if you see what i mean.
parts are easily available and cheap as chips from keencut.

keencut can also factory refurbish and set up your mount cutter if required. we used to have ours sent off every couple of years, cost about £80, and back within a couple of days.

[washy21]

Thanks again everyone

Yes I'm going to start collecting antique mountcutters - nothing like making the job difficult.

following all the comments I do suspect that there may be too much play in the bevel blade mechanism. I'm going to contact keencut and see what they can do, but maybe it is too old a model. I could sell it on ebay, but I wouldn't pass it on if I find out it is useless - I'll just accept I bought a dud.

Thanks for the scanned manual - that helps a lot.

If it turns out that my mount cutter has truly seen better days I'm going to look at a new one and have a look what is best.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Washy21,

Don't get worried yet. Here's a few facts which may help.

These days the cheap Stanley blades you get from a lot of hardware stores are not only not usually made by Stanley, but are made from very low grade steel. As a result they not only lose their edge the moment you try and use them, but they lack the necessary stiffness which you get from a genuine Stanley blade. Stanley blades are a lot better, but the genuine Keencut 080 blade is even better and made to a very particular specification.

I have proved this in my own workshop when cutting down the 4mm MDF on Simons "clip and bar" strutbacks on my Keencut system 4000. The only blade which will cut these without deviating is the genuine Keencut 080. Why?, it's loads stiffer and a completely different material.

Besides owning a Keencut Ultimat, I have at home the Keencut Dart. This was originally intended to use the Stanley shape of blades too, but I now use the rectangular blades instead. I had to readjust the blade depth setting, but it works just fine. Perhaps it will be the same with your Keencut Laser, I don't know.

Every Keencut mountcutter I have ever seen has the means of adjusting the play in the blade carrier and the sliding head - Ask Keencut for advice.

I use single sided blades these days, (they are the ones ground on one side only) and they make a very big difference. Ask Keencut to send you some samples. The Tech D 0.015" blades are the business - I use them all the time now.

Also please be aware that your choice of mountboard can affect any tendancy to produce hooked cuts. Some mountboards are just much easier to cut and therefore less likely to deflect the blade while starting the cut.

Stick with it - Unless the mountcutter is completely worn out, you'll be able to get there.

[John]

Hi Washey21, welcome to the forum. Sorry it turned out to be such a baptism of fire. However you handled it well and with great style. If the Foreign Office are in need of a diplomat, and are looking for nominations, you'll get my vote.

Robo is a great contributor to the forum, and normally a very helpful guy. Being short staffed, he has been under a lot of pressure lately with a massive workload. So he is taking a few days off to focus what spare energy he has on recruiting some new hands. So, until he is able to return, he has asked me to convey his sincere apologies for his bad behaviour here.

Regarding your mountcutter, is there not some way that you could get the seller to give you another demo? You said that he was able to cut perfect mounts with this machine. Alternatively, how about approaching the friendly framer who is cutting the mounts for you for a quick lesson?

[kev@frames]

another thing is that these machines tend to "wear in" to fit the user - I never had any problems with them till I got staff, and we all use things differently.
its best explained by trying to keep in mind that the "machine" is really just a couple of jopined up hand tools, (a straight edge, and a cutter) and no two hand tools used for a period by two people will be the same or work the same after a while. It may be "worn in" to suit the previous owner, even moving a couple of inches to one side may make a difference to you.

are you using it the "right" way? (standing at the "short" end), or maybe the previous owner operated it flat, or on a wall mount, all these things affect how it wears, its nothing bad, wear is just normal. it will "fit" you after a while.

You dont notice them wearing gradually, and you compensate for wear in them without thinking.

If the previous owner can cut perfect mounts, then it isn't a dud, so dont worry too much. parts are cheap, they are easy to work on, and you'll get years out of it. the bearings do go, so the head can get wobbly, but very easy to replace.

IMHO the laser is every bit as good as the ultimat for day to day work, and we even used to cut MDF on ours using the 080 blades. trust me, i cut literally thousands of mounts in huge batches by hand for years for mail order and internet before we got a CMC.

cutting mounts takes a bit of practice, and a bit more practice on a used machine than a new one.

(i dont know if the square "tech D 012" blades do fit in the laser, but we only ever used square blades in the ultimat, and then we still used 080s in the "square" trimming side.