A nice Hogarth moulding?

[Jamesnkr]

Is anybody aware of a nice Hogarth moulding on the market? Or (he says in desperation) indeed anything similarly traditional in black with some gold stripes that is some sort of bastardized Hogarth, but is nice, not plastic.

[caro]

I recently used arqadia 475167034, its about 19mm wide 16mm tall. the gold edges are very shiney, and I had a terrible time with the mitred edges crumbling, but that might have been me ramming it too hard into the underpinner to get a good join because it was slightly warped, .

[Graysalchemy]

You mean this arqadia one

[kuduframes]

Lion L1644

[prospero]

All of the Hogarth mouldings I have seen in recent years have been of the cheapo variety. The black is plasticy and the gilt very shiny. If you use them on antiquarian prints they tend to look nasty. But you can do a bit of subtle distressing on them with fine steel wool and add a few scratches. Wax polish and a dust with rottenstone works wonders.
I have even re-finished some completely.

[Framemaker Richard]

I don't think anything in pre-finished length exists. The so called Hogarth mouldings sold now bear little resemblance to original examples. For a start the finish was originally directly on wood, not on gesso or any type of horrible coating. I think a barewood moulding from Rose & Hollis with stain and just some gilt cream rubbed on the inner and outer edges would be more authentic and period looking than anything available off the shelf.

I did find one company a few years ago, called Replica Frames who made some nice examples, I have no idea if they are still around. A few images from their catalogue below.

[prospero]

It's my theory that (so-called) Hogarth mouldings became so popular back in the day because they had a name. People could swan into a frame shop and declare that they wanted a Hogarth frame. They got used on the most inappropriate subjects. Thankfully, people seem to have developed better taste over the years.
Ashworth and Thompson used to do some nice Hogarths. Very expensive as I remember.

[vintage frames]

I've been making Hogarth style frames for nearly 15 years now. They are used by antique print dealers who want something more authentic than the mass produced mouldings. These can be quite nasty looking.
If you are interested, I can supply a finished frame costing anything from £18 to £35 per foot.

[Jamesnkr]

So clearly the answer is 'no'.

Dermot (if I may), I have been reading your wonderful blog and therefore have some rosewood Santos veneer sitting under my desk which has just arrived and am very excited to try. May I ask (1) what colour of waterstains you use - I'm guessing you use Fiddes?; (2) what dry pigments you use in your shellac; and (3) what sort of antiquing glaze you use.

Sadly I cannot possibly spend the sort of money you suggest on a print with a retail value of 500-1,000, but I do hope to see your step-by-step how-to guide in due course! And if I find a client who does have that sort of money to spend I shall send them your way.

[vintage frames]

Leading on from Hogarth frames to veneers, the most important thing you can do is sand or clean up the veneer properly. If that isn't done, then no matter what finish you apply, the frame will look crap.
Assuming you have glued down the veneer flat, sand with 180grit first, then wet the veneer with water 'to raise the grain and when dry, finsh sanding with 320 grit. Best to use an orbital sander and be careful not to sand through the veneer.
Rosewood has a very strong colour and figure, so only a light stain is required. I would use Vandyke stain, mixed with walnut stain and a little red mahogany. Use a piece of bare obeche to test on and I would always use water stains as you have complete control over the finish, ie it can be scrubbed off if needs be. Also there will be no reaction to the shellac over-coats.
Try mixing some brown umber dry pigment into the shellac, too much pigment will streak so take care.
When all the finishes are applied, rub on some Fiddes walnut wax to give a nice antique tone.
I do produce my own antiquing glaze... something I've been buggering about with for ages, and just when I think I've cracked it, something new happens and so it goes on. So, not quite ready to go to market yet.
Good luck with the veneer.

[Jamesnkr]

Thanks for sharing your secrets.

Is this the wax you mean?

http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/pro ... -oil-tints

I must say I was going to sand by hand to begin with, 0.6mm isn't very much to go through!

[vintage frames]

Fiddes used to make "English Walnut " wax but now they don't. I would use "Georgian Mahogany" on rosewood, instead.

[urlhttp://www.restexpress.co.uk/acatalog/Fiddes_Mellow_Wax.html][/url]

If there was an easy step by step way to finishing veneers, I'd have written so much as to fill a book! There are short-cuts and these will always compromise the quality of the finish, but the best advice is to give me a ring and I''ll try to talk you through it. I've sent you a PM with my number.

[Jamesnkr]

Thank you, that is very kind.

[Framemaker Richard]

If anyone is ever looking for original carved 18th/19th Century print frames, I have about 30 Hogarth style frames in various small sizes, very antique condition...

[Jamesnkr]

Dermot

I have now largely completed my first veneered frame, using some Zebrano veneer (because it was cheap for a first attempt; hateful stuff, never again, the splinters!) on a plain-wood bevelled frame, and French polished. I must say I'm very impressed indeed with the result which will definitely sell well (watch me mark my prices up...), but there are one or two little questions.

1. When gluing the veneer, the recommendation from Titebond (see youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxUKc4JWBaI which looks like an advertorial to me) is to put the glue on, let it dry and then iron it on (I had no idea you could do that with Titebond before Dermot's blog). I actually therefore bought some double-sided iron-on veneer glue, http://www.woodveneer4u.co.uk/WoodVeneerAdhesives.html and coupled with a "moulding hammer" (an old lump hammer head) it has done a great job. I'm not rushing out to buy a vacuum press but wonder if I'm missing something!
2. When cutting out and trimming, do you just use a stanley knife?
3. When it comes to staining the sides a dark colour, it struck me AFTER the veneer was on that it should have been done before veneering so as to avoid any bleed into the veneer. Using a straightforward water-based stain I cannot see the presence of stain would interfere with the gluing process.
4. I notice in your blog that you make the frame and then stain the rosewood; doesn't that give you very dark joints?

Thanks ever so! (And to Framemaker Richard and Not Your Average Framer and Prospero who have all, one way or another, egged me on to this.)

(I am *itching* to get out of the ****** office and home to get on with this. Pic to come when finished!)

[vintage frames]

Hi Jamesnkr.
Good to hear you had success with the rosewood veneer. What you read about using Titebond as a hot-melt glue is rubbish. It has indeed got hot-melt properties but you would only use these on areas where the glue hasn't taken, like blisters or air pockets under the veneer. Done over a large area would the effect is a horrible relief pattern which prints through the veneer.
I use the Titebond wet and in a vacuum veneer bag. This is best when you have a quantity of frames to veneer.
You did well to use the hot-melt veneer film.
When cutting veneer I always use a stanley knife, but quite lightly so as to score the cut several times before cutting through. Rosewood is notorious for splitting.
Stain the sides any way you want - just avoid touching the veneer. I use spirit and shellac stains.
I always assemble the frame first before any finishes. All the stains and finishes do pool into the joints but this is quite authentic for a hand-finished frame. Gives it some life!
'Hope this is helpful.