Large, float mounted watercolour for Conservatory

[theframingwizard]

Hello all,
Had a phone call from a client after giving an estimate for a large (1100x1500) watercolour to be float mounted and framed.
Turns out it is to be hung in a conservatory.
Apart from UV glazing to try to reduce the fading, is there any way to try mitigate the temp/humidity fluctuations? Humidity controlling mount board?
Hope the client has deep pockets..

Many thanks

[prospero]

Try to persuade him to have a statue instead.

[JFeig]

A hermetically sealed frame is an option. Taping the edge will only slow down the transfer of moisture, not prevent it.

[Roboframer]

Well, there's conservatories and there's conservatories, we have one which is 12x8 ft and it's like an oven this time of year even though it faces North; there's glass on 3 sides (all with blinds but on one side they are pretty much permanently raised) so really it faces East and West too! - Plus there's a diffused Perspex (or polycarbonate or whatever it is they use) roof. We do have a framed picture in there though, a limited edition, one of a pair, the other is in the room the conservatory is extended from but at right angles to it and either they're both fading at the same rate or nothing is happening because they are the same - these two pictures are a couple of things from many that have proven to be my own ageing tests on mount board and UV glass.. won't bore you but ........

.......Maybe your customer's conservatory is more like this, in which case I wouldn't worry too much!

[prospero]

In this case the word 'Conservatory' is a classic oxymoron.

[theframingwizard]

Thanks for the responses, I'll have another word with the customer again and see if it's one of the fancy-pants conservatories with temperature control etc, but I'm sure the temperature will fluctuate wildly regardless..

Thanks for the info Robo, and glad to hear that you pictured at home are staying in good condition. The watercolour is new and of good quality. Modern pigments are much better than old but it still feels risky.

Hermetically sealed frame could be a possibility. Do you have any knowledge of a type of passive humidity controller designed for frames? My cigars are stored with Boveda bags http://www.bovedainc.com/technology/ which keep the humidity constant but much higher than required for framing. Maybe sillica gel or similar?

Think I'll keep it simple for now and try and get her to hang it elsewhere in the house!

Ta,
M

[prospero]

You would have to go to extreme lengths to frame it in a totally isolated micro-climate.

But maybe it will be OK just framed as normal. No reason it should automatically go manky just because it's in a potentially paper-unfriendly environment. Some artworks are tougher than others. It most likely will go manky, but no reason it should.

[IFGL]

Just mount it so it can move, I float mounted a poster that kind of size a couple of years ago using pass through hinges, lots of them, not in a conservatory though.

Artcare mount board should help with fade prevention.

[JFeig]

One thing to remember about hanging a work of art in an extremely bright room..... It is not a place for paintings and prints that you want to protect to be displayed.

ALL LIGHT IS DAMAGING TO ART, NOT JUST UV. Once you notice the damage, it is too late.

The second best oxygen and humidity seal is via an edge sealing tape with a metallic core.

[Not your average framer]

I'm a bit surprised that the art conservation industry has not fully solved the hermetic sealing isses, so that they can guarrantee total exclusion of oxigen and humidity.

I think that they probably have not been talking to people in the right industries. As I know from my own direct experience in defence and aerospace electronics, plus the gas analysis industry, that these industries have known how to do this for years and it's not complicated stuff either.

[Roboframer]

Even if they could or have already, it would be for the protection of high-value artwork hung in ideal/controlled conditions; not to solve problems caused by totally stupid conditions.

Offer the highest protection that you are capable of with the best materials available to you but make it absolutely clear that you have absolutely no control over the elements, if it's hung somewhere stupid it WILL fade - or cockle/buckle/explode/whatever.

Maybe sillica gel or similar

Silica gel is basically a sponge and as well as absorbing it can also dish it back out once fully saturated. Keep it for your biscuit barrel.

[IFGL]

Exactly we cannot work miracles.

[JFeig]

Things the the art conservation field has to worry about is longevity and outgassing.


Double glazed windows filled with argon gas have a limited seal life, in the 5-10 year range.

When the urethane foam or silicone seal outgasses, they do not worry about the action.

A water proof camera enclosure will work, other than acrylic will allow water molecules to pass through over time.

This is why metal and glass is used for conservation enclosures.

[IFGL]

Over this size, what you are talking about would probably cost more than the conservatory, just for fun what would one of these cost?

[JFeig]

$10,000US range plus shipping, made from anodized aluminum welded bar stock.

[IFGL]

That's actually cheaper than I expected, I thought it would be that but in £, still would work out very pricey for the customer all in with TAX, shipping, profit for the framer it's gonna be £18k + I doubt this painting is worth that kind of commitment, I am basing this on the fact it is going to hang in a conservatory, anyone with any sense would not be putting a high end painting in that environment.

Still you never know

[Not your average framer]

Acrylic glazing does not transmit moisture to the air inside, if the air inside is cooled to about 20 degrees below normal anbient room temperature, (close to zero degrees centigrade). It's the temperature of the air that determines the demand for moisture in the air it's self and water vapour does not exist except as ice crystals once you get down to zero degrees centigrade. This is how de-humidifiers and air decicators work.

If anyone cares to Google the "Arden Buck" equation, this will demonstrate what I am saying and yes, I do have direct experience in these technologies in my engineering background, so I can explain these things further if required.

http://www.chemeurope.com/en/encycloped ... ation.html

[Roboframer]

I don't think there's any need to get in to this kind of stuff - someone seems to want to hang something in one of the worst situations possible and whatever a framer provides it won't block heat. The mounting method also - floating - is problematic for works of value in ideal conditions, let alone the worst possible.

Given this job my main concern would be covering my proverbial when it comes back, because any rectification, that I'd be capable of rectifying anyway, would be charge-able and any permanent damage would be tough luck - I've never insisted on a customer signing an agreement/a disclaimer, but a case like this could well be a first!

It could also be that although it's a large piece, it could be cheap and nasty and a case of you, the framer, caring about its longevity more than the customer, who could be absolutely fine with dry mounting and laminating or whatever it takes to get the presentation right as opposed to the protection. If protection is paramount, hang it elsewhere, don't float it ... or sign here ............................... (A.N. Idiot, June 2015)

Or all three!

[Not your average framer]

I'm just showing that there is a viable way of stopping vapour transmission throught acrylic glazing and the neccessary components to do this don't cost the earth. All you need is one peltier device, two piezo diaphagm pumps, a 3v power supply the plugs into a 13 amp power power point, a handful of small electronic components, a small piece of aluminium with a few holes drilled in it and a sealed enclosure.

The technology already exists, but not in our industry! Why not?

This is really not rocket science, it's no more complicated than normal A level physics. It only needs an engineer to show that there is a simple way of applying the laws of physics to get the result that you want.

This is the same principle that operates those portable micro-fridges that you can buy for £19-99P. All the fridge lacks is the two micro air pumps, one to pump air through the cooling block and one to provide a small postive pressure inside the enclosure to prevent humid air entering through any leaks.

There's a couple of other details related to ensuring that the small positive pressure air pump also dries the air and another neat thing about limiting the oxigen in the enclosure, but none of it is rocket science.

[IFGL]

Mark if I thought I had an idea like that, that I thought would really work, I would keep quiet and test it, if it works take it to the relevant people like Lion, CXD or any one who might want to market and sell it on a possibly a global scale.

I had one of these moments a few years ago sat in the dentist chair whilst he was fitting a temporary crown, he said I had to come back the following week for the proper one fitting, which had to be made from the mould he had made.

Now my idea was to go talk to a 3d printer manufacturers about some sort of resin / ceramic type machine to literally print the crown out while you wait, I excitedly went home to start my research, 10 minutes of Google revealed to me that my idea was about to be rolled out already .

I had another revelation about the universe one night in bed only to find the same, it was already a theory , years to late on this one though.

I digress, test it.