The Framers Forum

Evening all,

Wonder if anyone could help with a generic paint problem (not picture frame related).

Basically, I need to re-finish a set of mahogany dining chairs. As they stand, some hero has sprayed them with god-knows-what paint (white), which isn't sticking too well. Put it this way, after I put a top coat on one as a test (water-based gloss) you could scrape it off with your finger nail.

Going back to bare wood is not an option, as they are very detailed and the customer won't pay for that anyway.

Just wondering what my options are for stabilizing this so the final coat sticks and doesn't lift. Etch primer? Lacquer them at the end?

Any thoughts would be really appreciated (trust me!)

Paul

Hi Paul,

I use this

https://www.diy.com/departments/zinsser ... 476_BQ.prd

Once applied, can use top coat as normal. I use their shellac based primer and external primer.

Nick

Yep, I second the zinser

Great stuff

I've used the Zinsser Bin, but never tried this one.

Many thanks!

Have you tried solvent based gloss? maybe it's not available in the right colour.....

I've not used the Zinnser stuff but tried primers with similar claims with disappointing results.

Being a chair, it's going to be subject to wear in localised places so the paint bond needs to be extremely good.

Interested in how it works out.

Thanks, Mr P.

Paint has been bought - chosen by the customer. Shocking yellow, it is (Mr Heslop). It'd break my heart to slap yellow paint over lovely Victorian mahogany, but someone has already started the process with the white paint.

I share your concern about durability...do you reckon I should go over the end result with a spray lacquer (diamond-hard etc.)? If so, got any recommendations...would car clear coat be a daft choice?

Well, I'm not an expert on this sort of thing but I recently painted our kitchen. I bought the paint and the guy in the shop said to add something to it (technical explanation I know) - essentially it became '2 part paint', you need work pretty quickly with it. But the finish is rock hard - our unit doors get slammed several times throughout the day, dogs jumping, the usual banging and clattering in a busy kitchen & cleaning - not a bit has come away. I dropped a little droplet onto the worktop during the process and I thought I'd just clear it off later but I forgot until a few days after & even with a razor blade the little drip (not me) took an effort to remove.

Whatever you spray on top will just be more to flake off. You have to give the paint a sound surface to bond to.

I've seen magic primers that say you can repaint Melamine cabinets and such. And you can. And it does stick - to a point.
What they do is provide a barrier between one surface and another. Paint will stick to them better than bare Melamine and
they will stick to Melamine better than paint. But it's not quite the same. It will probably last until you decide to paint them a
different colour with bits wearing off in the meanwhile. It's a quick fix.

I hope you warn the customer that without taking it back to the wood, he's likely to end up with shabby chic.

Hammerite paint tends to stick to anything and stay stuck, but Hammerite is not nice stuff to paint over with something else, but it does stay stuck.

We used zinnser on a hotel refurbishment job so it gets a rough time and it has worked with no problem.

To be fair, i got the recommendation from a 60 year old painter and decorator i use. I now use zinnser for priming windows and doors.

I would not use anything but the topcoat the customer has chosen.

The problem will be the oils that come out of hard wood. When i am making windows and doors in particular, the customer will ask for them to be made in oak as "it is most hard wearing" but want it painted. I will point out this is fine, but they will be painting the windows every couple of years as the paint will flake off. It is the tannins coming out of the wood that will cause the problem.

I will do it if they insist, but generally persuade them to use a good softwood like douglas fir or Larch. These timbers have resin in that does not do the same to paints. I took out and replaced a pine sash window last week that i reckon had lasted 80 years. Pine is not as good as it was, but doug fir makes a good similar replacement.

If your chairs are oldish, the timber will have dried and not cause as bad a problem as before and paints like zinnser have improved.

Cheers

Nick

Just invested in a little paint sprayer (Wagner W100). I fancied one for the fence panels anyway .

Going to do a coat or 2 of the Peel Stop, then spray on 2 or 3 coats of the water-based gloss stuff.

To help with durability, I'll finish with rattle cans of clear lacquer - couple of coats

Should be fun (or not)



PS. Thanks for that, Nick....great point about the oil in the wood. Like you say, hopefully all dried up (famous last words )

Paul, no matter what you add on top of the unknown white paint you will still have a problem with the adhesion between the "unknown white paint" and the wood.
If they are not willing to pay for proper surface preparation, go no further and decline the job. Who knows if the chairs were properly cleaned and prepared prior to the first coat of "unknown white paint".

Can of stripper and some HD gloves. Messy, but the only sensible way.

If the customer won't cough up for a proper job, send them to Harry Potter.

cleaver wrote: ↑Wed 27 Nov, 2019 2:53 pm Just invested in a little paint sprayer (Wagner W100). I fancied one for the fence panels anyway .

Going to do a coat or 2 of the Peel Stop, then spray on 2 or 3 coats of the water-based gloss stuff.

To help with durability, I'll finish with rattle cans of clear lacquer - couple of coats

Should be fun (or not)



PS. Thanks for that, Nick....great point about the oil in the wood. Like you say, hopefully all dried up (famous last words )

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I doubt after all that effort the finish will not pass the finger nail test

JFeig's advice is worth consideration

Peter.

I agree wirh Jerome about the unknown paint. Having said that, i would put it to the customer. Stripping the chair would cost £x and painting over £y. Then state the risks of painting over paint, and see what they say. If they chose the cheaper option, put in writing that you cannot guarantee the longevity of the finish.

We are building a house for a customer, and we have to end up going with them (or their architect) when things aren't how we would do it. We always put it in writing to cover ourselves.

Nick

Done 'em.

Put a coat of Peel Stop over the mystery white coat, but the yellow 'gloss paint' was still chipping far too easily (for a chair, especially).

I think the crux of the problem is the water-based gloss...simply not up to the job in a high-wear situation.

I finished off with a couple of coats of PlasiKote clear lacquer (about £7 a can from Toolstation), and that seems to have helped a lot.

As ever, thanks for the advice, all....and I'm pleased to have found out about Peel Stop, if nowt else.

The things that customers expect us to do to make a living! I don't know how, or why this started, but everybody who needs something fixed no matter how wrecked it is, makes a beeline straight for my shop. It's true that I manage to fix quite a lot of things, but making a decent amount of money out of it is another matter. It seems that afterwards, they go and spread the word to others. I'm not so sure that this is not a bit of a mixed blessing. All to often I do it, because it's a regular customer, but then there are times where the initial contact leads to return business for framing from the other customer, so it's swings and roundabouts. I used to do quite a lot of repair work in earlier days, when the town had a local auction house. Many things bought in the auctions were bought in damaged condition and brought in to be fixed, very often for selling on.

Well, the auctions has gone and there's less profit in such items to make it worthwhile paying somebody else to fix things. I've never minded showing people how I do things and perhaps some of them are doing their own repairs now. I don't mind, some of them are finding finances a bit difficult these days, so if I've managed to help them, that's good. I even do a bit of that myself, when the right opportunity comes along and mend small bits of furniture which come my way and then sell them on. Cosmetic repairs are usually quick and easy, profitability is a bit hit and miss, but it's usually worth doing. I've got a few dealers, who come in from time to time and see if they can negociate the right deal, often there's a part exchange involved of something that needs fixing up. Lots of things are about learning new things along the way and you never know when one job will lead to something else.

Mark, I guess the trick is to only show people how to do the PITA stuff

I wouldn't mind, but this has been a pure favour for a good friend who's an upholsterer. Though it was a royal pain to do, I'm glad I've helped him, as he a really kind soul - and up to his neck in work right now. He doesn't normally take on 'painting' jobs (just the upholstery side), so it's a good feeling to have saved him this trouble...and he and his customer are chuffed with my brushwork!

Hope you're still on the mend, Mark.

Thanks Paul,

I'm still at it and making a bit of progress. Today has been a busy day, we just said goodbye to our old car and tomorrow we collect our new one. It's not completely new, just a little bit newer than the old one and more importantly it's got a automatic gearbox, which is in preparation for me to get my driving license back following my stroke. It's taking quite a long time for DVLA to process me getting checked out.

I've been passed as o.k. by the hospital, but instead of sending the form back to DVLA, they've just filed it and DVLA don't bother chasing it up. Trying to get things moving is not easy. All the best.

Fantastic news on the driving, Mark

I'm sure your new car will be newer than mine....it's a 1997!! But around London I don't want anything too sparkly and expensive!

Thanks again for all your phenomenal replies on here (to my posts and others')....I always read and digest; and often cut and paste for future reference.

Have a great Christmas, mate