Very Hard Ash Moulding Help!

[Phill]

I ordered L1387 and L1391 float moulding, now my problem is this, the L1387 is an Ash moulding and is very very hard, nibbled my way through it on the morso no problem but can I underpin it, know way, I tried every thing, after an hour I gave up. Really fed up and started to question can I make frames (I'm sure we have all had bad days), anyway after a sulk I started to cut up the L1391 and guess what it had that lovely crumbly texture, but I'm sure the next length will be fine. I surpose if the supplier sells the moulding others must find it ok, I think what it is, is that the quality of the moulding changes so much from length to length, should it be like that? I have used this moulding before(not the Ash one)and have had no problems.
While talking about mouldings, I order on line from a big supplier, it always says that the moulding is in 6mtr lengths, when it arrives, it is only 3mtrs, and that is 2cm short, so if I ordered 4 packs thinking they are 6mtrs and only get 4 packs of 3mtrs I,m short they never take into acount how many mtrs you have ordered it is just the pack quantity, what is up with them, does anyone else have the same problems, and that 2cm short per length mounts up, but ofcourse they say it is only an approximate measure.

[Phill]

Just noticed a bad mistake, should read no way, not know way.

[prospero]

6 mtr lengths ??? Or do ya mean 10ft?

[Moglet]

Phill, I empathise with your frustration over moulding quality. It's one thing to be able to claim credit for carp moulding lengths, but there's no compensation for the time lost dealing with it.

I also find it frustrating when one orders in a special, and the quality is so poor that one doesn't have enough to complete the customer job at hand...

[Phill]

Sorry Prospero, it should be 6mtr packs, but I only get 4mtr packs.

[prospero]

Had me confused there for a minute. I was thinking 3mtr = 118 inches, 10ft = 120....... too early in the morning for advanced maths.

Anyhow, re the pinning. Have you tried using a block of wood so that the pressure bears on the flat back bit and pin along that rather than the vertical side?

[Phill]

Yes, tried everything, it is that hard the wedges just won't go in far enough.

[Spit]

I use a fair bit of deep rebate ash, and have difficulty using anything more than 10mm wedges - and forget stacking! I usually glue, use a couple of 7mm or 10mm to each corner, being very careful not to flex it when changing corners, then band clamp the top, putting in some brads if I feel its needed.

Ash is a lovely looking wood, but it can be a right pig to work with.

[WelshFramer]

I ordered L1387 and L1391 float moulding,

I use quite a lot of those. I glue them using a strap-clamp and then, when the glue's dry, stick a 7mm in each corner (just in case).

Since the artwork (in my case generally canvas or other prints on fomecor) is glued to the frame all the way round I figure that if the mitres fail then the arwork will hold the frame together.

Many of these frames get hard treatment being dragged around craft shows in the boot of a car by the photographer and I've not had any returned yet.

[MITREMAN]

Hi Phil,
In order to help you, perhaps you could up load a picture of the problem mouldings and supplier name?

Ash is a dense hard wood with a very tight grain.

What Underpinner are you using?

For extra hardwoods such as Ash, Oak, etc you will need to do the following.
You will need a hard wood bung or a solid platform?
You will need hard wood wedges (which ash requires?)
What size wedges are you using?
Are trying to stack them?
You will need to increase the pressure on your underpinner/compressor?
You will need to hold the moulding very tight or use a pinner with clamps.
Hope this helps

Looking at moulding lengths, having worked in a moulding manufactures.
Lengths of moulding availability are only a guide due to timber type, availabity and faults being cut out were possible.
If there is a fault you should get an allowance and extra meters put in to compensate (some suppliers will stamp a fault mark)
If you order a 6 m pack (19.68feet) you would expect to get that , not the nearest to it, as it can happen if the moulding picker is not that bothered, or for the above reason which you should get an allowance.
I would always advise to buy more than you need for a particular job if buying on line, or as I prefer to do, order personally and speak to the supplier direct and state the minimum quantity you require.
Also consider chop service to eliminate waste, a very good idea if you want to use very hard woods, as a double mitre saw with clamps is mainly used by suppliers for this service, they provide a good mitre.
Sometimes moulding cut on a Morso will move if it’s a very hard wood and you don’t hold it tight or your rebate supports are set incorrect.
Some firms will router out a joint which requires a plastic plug and glue for you to assemble. This would be good if your underpinner can’t cope with joining some profiles.

The other moulding (framers favourite,a bit like a quaver )
might be I guess is the dreaded Snotwood (a grain fault in obeche or similar timber)

MITREMAN
“It’s a real ale for me”
Check out
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[Ricky]

Hi Phil
I've just finished framing a tapestry, done in ash with a 18mm rebate,
I used a good coat of glue & three 7mm wedges in corner
anything bigger just won't go. Tough Stuff this Ash,
Problem is, Ash seems to be the In thing at the moment

[prospero]

I like ash. Bootiful wood but tricky to join. Wideish, flat stuff is easier, but profiles that are deeper than they are wide are problematic.

My method is to put a shallow wedge in and then strap it and drill/nail nearer the top (before the glue sets). The wedge and clamp combined stop the joins from sliding when you nail it and keep the glue join intact. With ash the nail holes are not obvious once filled as they tend to merge into the grain. Even better if it is unfinished.

[avantime]

As some may know I run my own ash, oak and tulip mouldings. Over the years I find that hard wood wedges are a MUST. I also use the PU expanding glue and flat sand the frames after joining. You can get a "fast grab" PU glue which dries in 5 mins.

I use a minigraf under pinner with the correct wedges - this usually fires the pin in fast enough! Once the glue has dried and expanded the excess is scraped off and the wood sanded. The glue fills the gap on the outside edges of the moulding caused by displacement - ie the wedge going into the ash.

Good luck!

(In a previous thread on PU glue I said I would post some pictures of hardwood frames using PU glue - I shall pull my finger out and take some pics over the weekend!)

Hugh

[Phill]

Never thought of glueing first then putting 7mm wedge in that might work, will have to get one of those straps, the frame size is only 16cm x 41cm and will have 5mm foamcore glued to it. Belive it or not they are going to be clocks, no honest, they look really nice.

Mitreman:-

I have a Minigraf 44.
Using hardwood wedges.
Tried 15mm, then 12 and 10.
Increased pressure.
Had no real trouble with Ash before but this seems extra hard.

And thanks for all your help, I get really P-off when it all go's wrong.

Will let you know how I get on, will have to get a strap first.

[markw]

Your chance of getting a 15mm wedge in hard ash is almost none existent - glue well and use a 7mm wedge - you might get a 10mm to work if your lucky.

[prospero]

I once got a local furniture maker to run me a length of oak in special profile for a firescreen. It was as hard as hells door-knockers. I even had to cut it in half notches on the morso. It was tough enough getting nails in, let alone wedges. Sounds like you have some extra dense ash.

Try one of those tie-down straps for car use as a clamp. You can get more tension on than the ones made for framing.

[Not your average framer]

As long as it's not one of those bits of ash which is just too hard, (some bits are). Then placing wedges as close as you dare to the rebate can help, because the thin bit of wood between the wedge and the rebate, will give more easily as the wedge goes in.

I do this with difficult bits of ash, and usually manage to stack wedges in this position, but you have to be good at judging how close to get to the rebate.

Too close and the wedges go in side by side instead of stacking, too far away and you don't get that little bit of give which make all the difference.

I also put in a shorter wedge by itself to stiffen up the mitres. Again well away from the outside of the moulding.

[Spit]

Another tip is that, on the minigraf at least, there are felt top clamp heads as well as harder plastic ones - the felt one tends to get left on as it is less likely to scuff or dent a finish. Ash should be pinned with the harder head, there's too much give in the felt one.

[Moglet]

I get really P-off when it all go's wrong.

Phill, I'm glad you posted the above comment, as it helped me to hear how you feel when you get a run of things going assways.

If my last fortnight is anything to go by, then you haven't been particularly singled out by the universe, and I hope that you might find some small comfort in knowing that I seem to be having a similar time at the moment: clean the glass to find it's scratched; flecks in finished, v-grooved double mounts, scabby mouldings, etc. etc.

[Roboframer]

On my Euro underpinner there are two pads (a long one and a short one - the short one for higher mouldings) with hard rubber heads that take the shape of the moulding. There is also a rock hard plastic one with a thin felt pad which is great for ash, just a pity it also does not come in a shorter version - high ash, or other hardwoods can be a problem.

But generally I can get a 10mm wedge in most ash profiles with no problems at all - can even stack two when the pressure is max.

Some that are a PITA (Pain In The Ash) I put up with anyway - because all ash I use is plainwood which I hand finish, so - easy enough to sand and fill.

Some, like Simons ash 11 - which is V thin at the back, I just put two 10 mm wedges front and centre - plenty of glue (after sizing the mitres as well), and much later maybe add a 5 or 7mm wedge at the back.

If I put that back wedge in first it would splay the mitre.