The Framers Forum

Greeting everyone!

Newbie framer here, and also English is not my first language so apologies for any incorrect terms etc. Here's my question:

I have a customer who is a photographer and who would like to frame her prints (mounted on dibond) with a very thin, high moulding. Width 10mm, height 40mm, most likely oak. The "back" of the moulding would be only 5-6mm. Her largest print size is 70 x 100 cm, but there are also smaller ones.

I told her that I would not recommend using such a thin moulding for such large pieces as it would be very unstable. But she keeps insisting, saying she saw this type of frames used in exhibition she visited. So I promised I would look into it. (I also suggested that perhaps the frames she saw were actually aluminum with a wooden finish?)

So I am wondering, is there any way I could frame a 70 x 100 cm dibond mounted photograph with a W10mm/H40mm oak moulding (box fram with glass)? I have been reading on the forum about subframes, so perhaps that's an idea?

Although as I understood it the "back" of the regular moulding would still need to be wider than 5-6mm to be able to attach the subframe to it. Is that correct? (Otherwise there is not enough wood for the screw to attach to?)

And if 70 x 100cm is not possible for this moulding, what do you think the maximum size would be?

Any other thoughts on what I might suggest for this customer would also be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Ha, I think we all have a client like that!

Firstly, I agree, the sensible way to proceed would be to use an aluminium profile. But, that is probably not what the client wants.

I have done a similar job in oak for a customer, and it did work, but with one caveat - if the glass (or in my case Acryguard acrylic) was to break, it cannot be repaired without breaking the frame.

I used 12mm x 50mm solid oak, and routed a 2mm channel for the acrylic, and another wider channel for the artwork. I used a Hoffmann to join 3 sides of the frame, and then slid the acrylic and artwork in, before adding the last side of the frame. I did add a subframe which I glued and added many small screws to. This method did work, but it was difficult to insert the artwork and then join the frame with no dust or dirt getting in.

You could possibly achieve the same thing by using a traditional moulding, and adding a wooden fillet to separate the glass from the artwork, and another fillet behind the artwork to give you more thickness to screw the subframe in to.

Whatever option you go for, make sure that you charge enough for the extra work, and be sure that the customer understands that they are asking you to disregard the laws of physics!

Nielsen do a range of real wood veneered aluminium mouldings but the deepest is 34mn and it’s only 5mm wide at the front, I think that would flex on a frame that size.

They do one 19mm by 8mm which I think would be fine if the customer would compromise on depth. Maybe there are other profiles but their website isn’t the best!

Otherwise, for the sort of profile required in wood, at least you have room for the simplest other option, which is to brace it with a purpose-made moulding, BUT - it would be a once only job.

Make it an engineering fit, glue and clamp the two frames together and when dry put 4 or 5 screws each side, of a length that will go about 3mm in to the outer frame.

As for the maximin size for that moulding un-braced, 40x40cm tops for me - not that I’d have it on display in the first place!

That moulding size is too small for a Hoffmann W0 key, but if you can find a moulding that has a slightly wider base like 7-8mm, that would be possible, but putting a 40mm key in can be tricky, it has to be spot on. I've used Jim's idea in the past, gluing pieces of wood onto the inside back to give me D ring hanging points. As said, this is fine unless the glass needs replacing...although if moubted on dibond and laminated, then no glass is necessary.
Yes a subframe would be essential. It's a tricky job that is starting to sound expensive, especially for a photographer who is dealing in multiples.

I have taken the liberty to draw what I think you are trying to explain to us, fellow picture framers. The photographer wants the frame rails to be up to 1 meter in length(approx, 40"). From an engineering standpoint it will not be able to support itself using a strong wood including the glazing and the mounted photo.
The only way will be to have an inner skeleton(hidden strainer made from wood) and possibly secured onto a wall by either the strainer of mount material.

In theory, it can be done; however, it will require advanced skills not known by most picture framers. It will also cost the client more than what they expect.

You have to abandon the conventional thinking and build the internal package on a sturdy subframe.
There are sections made for this purpose which incorporate the option of forming cleats for hanging.
Then, the outer frame serves only to hold the package together and can be as skinny as you like.

This was a BIG one I made using pine t&g cladding. It has half-lap joints which are much stronger than butt joints.

The outer frame was quite chunky, but I could have used ½" wide stuff. The only thing is the subframe takes up a certain
thickness so the outer frame has to be deep enough to swallow it.

Thank you all for your replies, very helpful!
I don't have any equipment to make aluminum frames so wood is the way to go. (Unless I want to send the customer somewhere else...)

Gesso&Bole wrote: ↑Fri 14 Apr, 2023 8:49 am

You could possibly achieve the same thing by using a traditional moulding, and adding a wooden fillet to separate the glass from the artwork, and another fillet behind the artwork to give you more thickness to screw the subframe in to.

This sounds like something I might be able to do. (The first suggestion sounded a bit tricky for my skill level...) So I would glue the fillet behind the artwork to the outer frame? And I'm guessing it's the same thing here with glass, that if it breaks you can't replace it without breaking the frame?

JKX wrote: ↑Fri 14 Apr, 2023 9:23 am
Otherwise, for the sort of profile required in wood, at least you have room for the simplest other option, which is to brace it with a purpose-made moulding, BUT - it would be a once only job.

Make it an engineering fit, glue and clamp the two frames together and when dry put 4 or 5 screws each side, of a length that will go about 3mm in to the outer frame.

So this is sort of the same idea as above except without the wooden fillet behind the artwork attached to the outer frame?


I like these two! Just have to try out the technique before I suggest it to the customer.
Do you think it will really work for a size up to 70x100cm? I'm afraid the attachment between subframe and outer frame wouldn't be secure enough, since the back of the outer moulding is so thin. But perhaps the glue would be the thing to help.

JFeig wrote: ↑Fri 14 Apr, 2023 12:28 pm I have taken the liberty to draw what I think you are trying to explain to us, fellow picture framers. The photographer wants the frame rails to be up to 1 meter in length(approx, 40"). From an engineering standpoint it will not be able to support itself using a strong wood including the glazing and the mounted photo.

photographers wanted frame.jpg

The only way will be to have an inner skeleton(hidden strainer made from wood) and possibly secured onto a wall by either the strainer of mount material.

In theory, it can be done; however, it will require advanced skills not known by most picture framers. It will also cost the client more than what they expect.

Yes, this is exactly the type of moulding!

And no, I also don't have these skills

prospero wrote: ↑Sun 16 Apr, 2023 1:35 pm You have to abandon the conventional thinking and build the internal package on a sturdy subframe.
There are sections made for this purpose which incorporate the option of forming cleats for hanging.
Then, the outer frame serves only to hold the package together and can be as skinny as you like.

This was a BIG one I made using pine t&g cladding. It has half-lap joints which are much stronger than butt joints.

The outer frame was quite chunky, but I could have used ½" wide stuff. The only thing is the subframe takes up a certain
thickness so the outer frame has to be deep enough to swallow it.

bigmap003.jpg

Thank you for this idea!

Although it also seems a bit complicated for me. I'm not sure how I would put this all together!
Would I need to attach the mounted photograph to the subframe? And the attach subframe to outer frame with... glue and screws?

Sorry, this all a bit new for me. That's why I have a million questions!

Think of the subframe as an extra heavy duty back. You don't actually have to attach it to the frame, but there are various
ways of doing it depending on the design. One way is to use Fletcher Multipoints which have a hole you can put a small screw in.
Remember, the outer frame is not subject to load-bearing so won't be liable to stress.

Building the subframe in the photo is actually very simple. I just used pine tongue and groove cladding and ripped the tongue side
off. If you can get thin that is maybe 8mm thick and maybe >90mm wide, all the better. The half-lap joints are formed by using two
layers which are glued/screwed together. No fancy woodwork - just 90º cuts.

Most framers don’t cut their own metal frames - they get them on chop service!

Miizu,
There is no time like the present to teach yourself a new skill or two.
The NUMBER ONE ADVISE that we can all relay with our combined years of experience is to:

• Experiment and improve your skill on Non-Customer material or project
  Practice - Practice - Practice

We all started with little or no experience