The Framers Forum

Anyone actually used it recently and can offer some tips tricks dos n don'ts? I've read what's on the grumble and now want to chat with someone who is a frequent user. Is there such a thing?
I have a customer waiting for the piece, so need to get my skates on n do some intensive practice.
Anyone with some positive experience up for a quick phone chat?

Ok well I was hoping everyone wouldn't rush at once
In case anyone searches for this topic in the next millenia I'll leave this here.
https://www.thegrumble.com/threads/mixi ... ste.87699/
Scroll down past all of the wheat starch/methyl cellulose blah blah blah and there are two framers who conducted experiments with it and some priceless information. If you know you know and if you don't then it's worth a read I'd say.
The reason for it all is that when hinging very lightweight paper there is always a chance of using too much water and creating cockling or pillowing by accident, which on a valuable piece would be a disaster (trust me, been there done that). Klucel G (non-ionic water-soluble cellulose ether to you and me) can be mixed with isopropyl alcohol to make a hinging paste that will not cockle/pillow the lightest weight of papers because the 90%+ alcohol used to make the paste evaporates. There is, it transpires a tested method for its use, which if not done correctly, renders it useless/not sticky at all and a mix with less alcohol making a thicker paste which can be used to paste hinges in advance, which can be wet with said alcohol when required. Genius!! Well I'm excited anyway... Happy weekend all! (There is a whole amazing world of framing experts out there, beyond the walls of the framers forum. Such a shame there isn't more excitement and involvement (bar a dozen people) in this group...)

That's very interesting Justin.
I've never used the stuff but can see where you're coming from when trying to control the amount of water on a wheat-starch hinge.
From reading the chat on the Grumble, it would seem to be a useful alternative to wheat paste.

Another idea would be to use a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water when wetting the wheat paste hinges. That way the water mix dries quickly and is better controlled.
But that doesn't get round the accidental splashing of water on to the art-work.

I'd try it out if I had some very fragile paper art to mount.

The results of a search here for “Klucel” I think gives a fair indication of response. The same question posed on TFG or Hugh Phibbs’ Facebook group “preservation chemistry” would have got response - maybe even a phone call - charges reversed of course

I think Klucel g was first properly mentioned for hinging by Hugh on TFG in 2019. It was interesting but a bit too late for me. I did note that a simple recipe seemed a problem.

Hugh wrote an article for PFM and I was still non the wiser.

The last two comments I can find by him on the subject both give a warning that the paper etc must be tested for reaction to alcohol - so for me the jury would be out until such time as lists of suitable and unsuitable papers/supports were made and also the simple mixing recipes and everything else.

If cockling of lightweight paper is the issue then both methyl cellulose and wheat starch paste (which can be mixed together) can be made in to a gel. Neither have ever come with a warning from Hugh regards chemical reactions.

It’s great that you are researching though - in UK making your own hinges and adhesives has never been a big deal. It sets you apart.

For me hinging had to be a last resort for anything classed as a conservation job, and if it came to it, and that would usually be for float mounting and against my advice, it had to be the best, not something out of a box.

Actually, that's a good idea - mixing methyl cellulose with wheat starch to gel up the paste.
And of course, there's the worry, whether alcohol would have any effect on the paper.

If the paper is antique, then no. On modern papers and inks? Who knows.

I'm glad the Grumble thread I signposted for you via the Guild's forum was useful Justin - and useful to have linked it here too.

I'm of the same mind as John (JKX) on this one regarding using Klucel G. Despite the thorough testing that is discussed on that thread, it also helps highlight some of the problem areas too and the effect it can have on the paper. When the discussions were first doing the rounds we looked at it all and decided to stick with what we were using when making our own hinges. The classes I did on conservation hinging at WCAF back in 2017 with input from two different tutors didn't alter that opinion.

Definitely worth looking at the MC/wheat starch mix though. Shame you're on such a tight timetable.

Now I am having doubts. With no way to test if the alcohol will react with the inks that the print is printed with, I think you are right, that I should just stick to the tried and tested route on this occasion.