Measure for Measure

[John]

It seems that in our workshop we spend more time measuring than anything else.

The job is first measured at the counter for pricing purposes.

It is then measured in order to make the mount.

The mount is measured to establish the frame size.

The frame is measured for glass.

And finally, the height is measured in order to establish the position of the 'D' ring. (No Wallbuddies yet)

This is a simplified version of what actually happens, as most dimensions are checked twice, and the frame is usually checked for squareness or tapering.

It has been put to me, by an engineer rather than a framer, that most of this measuring is redundant and that each job should be measured once and the dimensions noted on the framing docket, then all the elements of the framing job can be made by refering to these figures rather than by my process of measuring and re-measuring.

But old habits die hard and I'm not sure that I would be comfortable making the change.

I would be interested to hear how other framers measure up.

[markw]

John
Like you I measure, and remeasure - the old maxim - measure twice, cut once comes to mind as my paranoia for getting it wrong. In reality I measure once and use that information from the input to EST to order my chop mouldings - i then use the same info accompanying the job in the form of a printed docket to do all the other jobs - order in special glass if required, cut the mount and so on - yet i still like to reassure myself by measuring. I suppose its also attention to detail. Most of us work in an environment where you dont always get the chance to focus on the job in hand - customers in the shop or phone calls from that nice american lady telling me i have won a holiday all give you ample opportunity to cock up - better remeasure - cant realy trust my initial figures despite the fact that i have ordered in components based upon the original measurement, - Your engineer friend was right - i am just obsesive.

[evanstheframe]

Hi John
As a fitter with British Steel (Corus now) in a former life, we used to use a special formula, measure once then if it didnt fit use a 10 pound sledge. However, as a born again framer I cant use this method. What I tend to do with a job is measure the job then on a note pad I write the name of the person and what is required for the job. I then spend a little time measuring up mount size and borders, frame moulding and size, glass etc. Every size I require is jotted on the pad next to the item required. I pin this to my work in progress board. I guess they use this kind of thing in a restaurant from waitress to chef.
When one job is finished I take the next slip from the board and everything I need is written on the sheet ready.
Mind you this is great for me as I am a one man band with a small turnover. If I were on a large scale like some of you on the forum I may end up reverting back to the sledge method.

Lyn (ETF)

[Framing Norah]

Don't forget the back.

There has to be a separate measurement for the back. It would never do to use the glass dimensions for the back, now would it?

Is all this measuring really necessary? If it was eliminated, wouldn't the total time saved more than pay for the odd mistake that we make?

Though, like John, it would be hard for us to change the habit of a lifetime - no matter how much sense it would make.

[markw]

Lyn- This 10 pound sledge - I take it that you mean a cheap device to slide the mount, glass etc into position - I presume this device is so called because it has little runners to reduce friction. Where can i get one - it sounds like a tenner well spent??????????????

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

Separate measurement for the back? Why so? No need for this. Why does backing have to be a different size?

All my measurements are to discover the following:

Glass Size
Top Mount Size
Undermount Size
and
MDF / Backing Board Size

Any inner mount is cut 20mm (A/R) to ensure the gap between top and inner mount is exactly uniform the whole way round. (And be miserly saving mountboard)

Frame Size:
Frame Size is determined by adding 1.5mm (1/8" inch) each side and then cutting the frame. This allows for expansion and contraction of the moulding. MDF (as are other types of backing) are stable so wont expand or contract. So eliminating any need to recalculate a different size for the MDF.

Steven

[markw]

How far does moulding expand or contract?
why would mdf be any more stable than any other component within the frame?
Isn't glass the material that expands - contracts most.

I ask the questions because the traditional answers leave some doubt as to the observations made in practice.

Over the years i have taken apart my fair share of frames. I can honestly say that the only noticable problem observed is when the media is too tight within the frame. I have seen glass so tight that it was imposssible too remove - but noticed no visible affects either on media or frame.

Personally I leave about 1mm tolerance between frame and all other elements within the frame on an average size frame.

Glass expands with heat - mountboard expands with moisture but i doubt that it expands at the same rate as glass does when warmed - so does the practice used by some framers of taping glass to mount have a detrimental effect on the media? you theoretically have two materials combined that expand at different rates - this should mean disaster as the mount being the more pliable material would have to give way by buckling. Again having taken apart this sort of combination I have never noticed a detrimental effect. The only conclusion i can come to is that expansion and contraction of the materials used in the average frame is very minimal and that tolerancies should be appropriate to allow for easy installation into the frame rebate. If you use accurate equipment to cut your materials and know that all elements are square then tolerancies can actually be quite small. Its sensible to note that too tight a fit in reality make assembly of the finished frame difficult - back to my 1mm tolerance - not to make life better for the media - just easier for the framer.

I would make one very important addition to any frame that affects the life of the frame more than anything else - the bumper - two little bumpers at the bottom of the frame back do more to preserve the frame from problems it might pick up - whether it be from condensation or just damp walls. Again, from observation, this, almost invariably, is the cause of problems occuring to a finished frame after hanging not the expansion or contraction of the materials used.

[mick11]

Hi markw,

I would go along with everything you have said. My opinion is that the expansion/contraction of all the materials we use is so minimal as to not even need thinking about, unless under very extreme conditions. Paper, MDF and wood need to go from extremes of wet and dry before any noticeable effect take place. In the sizes we use for glass, even in extremes of hot and cold, I very much doubt the difference would be measurable without very sophisticated equipment.
With regard to paper, canvas, MDF and mouldings my opinion is based on the items being dry, ie 15 to 30 percent moisture content to start with.

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

Any woodworker that I know state that MDF is stable, (and even some I dont know, like those on TV) it doesnt warp, expand or contract. Some even sday all the hype of MDF dust is far too exagerated, (I wont take that chance myself) It even repells damp to a good extent. So basically I have never had any problems with this substrate. As for glass, thats debateable, some say it does, some it it doesnt, personally I have never had any problems or have been fortunate never to have come across any with the glass. Like markw the problems always stend form the materials being too tight, i.e. trying to fit it exactly...doesnt work. The first thing in my experience is the glass being broken, then further into the frame, the mountboard slightly bent and warped and the MDF / other backing, bowed. Every framer would have come across this at some time.

As for the moulding expansion and contraction, again, unless its regulary checked by us, we wont know what the expansion / contraction is..the moulding warping is easier to tell (a blind man could tell you the moulding has warped). Does anyone know what % the moulding actually expands / contracts? Does anyone know the differing values of each individual moulding?

As I stated in my last posting, I leave a tolerance of 1.5mm, not the 1mm like markw does, its a personal choice and works for me.

Steven

[mick11]

Hi Steven,
I'll go along with that. If there is a perceivable gap all round,and everything goes in nice and easy there shouldn't be a problem. Timber moves most in the initial drying, be it air or kiln dried, and a plank moves most across its width, on a ratio of about 3 to 1. This should be taken care of in the processing that follows when producing a moulding. Warped moulding are most likely caused by poor storage after they are produced.

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

And talking about poor storage and warping........anyone else noticed the bad state a lot of mouldings are arriving? The wholesaler blames the suppler, the supplier blames the manufacturer, they all seem to blame the delivery people, and the manufacturer..could be anywhere within the global landscape, beit the UK, Europe, USA, South America, or the Far East.
Some of the mouldings arrive in such a poor state (warped wise) not even worth taking the wrapper off...just send straight back.

Steven

[mick11]

Hi,
This is most like caused by poor drying at source. This is the reason a lot of repro furniture develops cracks. Air drying can take 3 years minimum, depending on the type of timber. Kiln drying is considerably quicker but expensive, and has to be done properly. Skimping can save a lot of money, and it only shows up at a much later date.

[Manor Fine Arts]

Hi John

Glad to hear im not the only one who measures and measures again,

When I was young ( Long time ago ) I was told "measure twice cut once"
there is enough waste in our business, so keep measuring

Paul