Is This What Todays Framers Still Do

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Fri 03 Jun, 2005 8:28 am

Hi,

Just to add a few pics of what framers, not of yesteryear, but framers today are still doing, and whats worse, they are getting away with it.
Just to add a quick note: I heard a very profound statement the other day, which if you look at it, the person who said it was exactly right...it was this......'By all means be angry that framers are getting away with this, but remember, if all framers were perfect and framed using the correct methods / standards, there would be no extra work for those framers that have the abilty and have the passion to make it right, its just a shame that the customer has to pay twice to have their work framed correctly'

Any how, here we go...the first images are of a backing put onto a frame, then I discovered through the client, maybe up to 100 frames. OK, these are basically certificate sized frames, a cheap moulding has been used, and more than likely cost has overridden the end product, but to use a print drymounted onto grey board...I let you make your own decisions about this method.

Second lot of images are of a valuable / collectable limited edition print, mounted using basic double sided ATG tape, placed directly onto the print and then the mount stuck down onto this. This was hard to photograph corretcly as we were taking care not to tear the image, but needless to say using Zest-It we were able to remove the ATG tape with care, and it took quite a while, this also removed most but not all the adhesive residue left on the paper border. I cabnot believe that framers still use ATG tape or double sided tape to stick prints down.

Now heres one just for the experts among us. Can anybody say they DONT make mistakes, can anybody say that they are perfect? I hardly think it.....My wife in her defence said she was distracted, said I was annoyong her, said she had to make me coffee in between underpinning sides, she just cannot face up to the fact that she set the pieces on the worng side. I hope she never checks this, otherwise I will be making my own coffee in future....And Lyn (Evantheframe)...you are not to mention that I posted this otherwise your course fee will double!!!!!! Anyhow here it is...

Steven

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Fri 03 Jun, 2005 6:28 pm

Steven. Thankyou !!
The customer never knows what is going on inside a finished frame do they??

Just makes you cringe and at the end of the day, its by people who call themselves framers and do it because they either lack the knowledge or are penny pinching.

I do like your last picture. Made me giggle. Just how many times have I done that. Even after it being hammered home.
Long Lengths on the Left of the underpinner, Short lengths on the right.

And it always seems to happen just after the order for a cuppa has been issued and you have tugged your forelock and said "Yes Darling !!"

So I can sympathise with your wife Steven, Maybe you did distract her.

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Fri 03 Jun, 2005 7:36 pm

Is it a coincidence? We also have the rule that the short sides go to to the right.

Also, we only apply glue to the short sides.

I wonder, is this universal within the trade?

More So · Post by **More So** » Fri 03 Jun, 2005 7:42 pm

Yep, me too!

Short sides to the right and glued. Though this was never taught as I managed to figure out how to use my first underpinner without the aid of a manual. It quickly became obvious that life would be much easier if a rule was established and adhered to without fail.

Post by **John** » Fri 03 Jun, 2005 8:15 pm

I suppose it really doesn't matter how you do it as long as you get into the habit of doing it the same way every time.

But coincidentally, we also use the long-side-left/short-side-glued system. Could it be that we are all tapping into some universal cosmic picture framing vibe? Might it be something like the way water always disappears down a drain clockwise direction in the northern hemisphere?

Perhaps our Australian friends use the opposite system.

Heavy, man!

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Sat 04 Jun, 2005 7:03 am

Hi,

We use the long to the left, the short to the right, and when I say we I mean 'me', my wife who is ambidextrous (if thats spelled right) does it the opposite way round. Each to their own, but that frame if I can remember correctly, was almost square, and with the distraction of me moaning for her to make coffee......well, mistakes do happen. Thankfully she is still in the dark about the image being posted, otherwise my weekend would be hell....hahahahahahaha

Going on from what FN said about glueing only the short ends, I glue the first short side to a dry long length, then glue a long length to the other side of that short end, then glue both sides of the last short length. Does that make sense?

Heres a thing getting off this thread a tad...does anyone have the same problem as me......does the glue cause hacks on the right index finger? Or do some use a brush to apply the glue?

Steven

markw · Post by **markw** » Sun 05 Jun, 2005 6:38 pm

I admire a man who has the courage to publicly humiliate his wife - bet its not only glue on the short side at the moment!

I was shown a sample board from Bainbridge on friday that claims to be a fully reversible archive quality dry mount foamcore board - I hope it does what it says on the tin because its the answer to some of the problems we get that have no easy solution - i for one hate presenting the customer with no practicle solution to framing a valuable piece of work that i know will cockle - so lets hope that the fine art trade guild will look at the product and declare its use as appropriate for conservation grade framing.

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:51 am

Hi Markw,

What form does this board take?
Is It self adhesive?
Is it heat activated?
Or is it just a substrate for using with dry mounting film, etc.?

Steven

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Mon 06 Jun, 2005 7:56 am

Hi,

Forgot to add this......if only she had pics of the cock ups I have done over the years..I wouldn't be able to look my students straight in the face.
Thank goodness digital camera wernt available in the dark days.

About the allergy to glue........anybody else?

Steven

Framing Norah · Post by **Framing Norah** » Mon 06 Jun, 2005 9:30 am

Hi Steven,

You didn't mention the type of glue that you are using, but you would think that PVA glue, being water soluble, should be inert and less likely to cause a skin reaction than other types of glue.

On a practical note, we have developed a technique to apply the glue to the moulding from the nozzle of the dispenser in such a way that there is no need to use a finger to spread it, so it never actually makes skin contact.

markw · Post by **markw** » Mon 06 Jun, 2005 11:52 am

Steven - conservation grade dry mount board. Details given at the time were - board is activated - deactivated in hot mount press - activation time was 15 seconds at a relativly low heat - deactivates in same time - heat -. It was being recommended by conservators in US.

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Tue 07 Jun, 2005 6:39 am

hi Markw,

Many thanks for that. Funnily enough I will be at Guild HQ next week talking about Conservation, so I will bring this up, and get back to you.

FN, the glue is Strathbond wood glue, the glue I have always used. I find it easier and more precise (no seepage) to place the glue with my index finger, always have, and i think it may be hard to change the habit of a lifetime. I have tried a brush, but keep ruining brishes because I always forget to wash them out, I have tried a cloth, waste of time, and ruin so many for the same reason. I think I will just put up with the odd hack or two. The glue seems to effect / affect (covering both bases there) my index finger and thumb. I once had a student go through the framing school who had been a carpenter for 25 years, sold his business in England to move back to Ireland with his wife, came her for the 5-day cousre and was actually allergic to glue in all its forms and guises. He wore disposable gloves while underpinning. Seems it effects / affects people in different ways.

Steven

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Tue 07 Jun, 2005 7:50 am

Guys

There is a concerns over that Bainbridge product…the jury is still out on this product……the general consensus with conservatoires is that other than wheat starch paste no other glue/adhesive is safe to use in preservation work……there has been quite a bit of talk about on various board including the Grumble, the Hitchhiker and a few others…and now here on this board…..

An adhesive that is totally reversible without any damage……….I would love to see the research to support that claim ……….

Oh BTW the allergy to some adhesives is most likely the Latex used in the glue……some people have an allergy to latex……there is lots of research to support this do a search under latex allergy……and you will find a bunch of support material including some very good stuff from the UK Government…

As a BTW Steve were the gloves that the framer you trained Latex or some other polymer …….if he was using Latex gloves it would indicate that his allergy was to something else other that Latex….this question is just a bit of curiosity on my part…

Dermot

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Tue 07 Jun, 2005 8:09 am

Hi,

I know I am not allergic to latex. I have a latex strip which the physio dept. at the local hospital gave me for excerises for tennis elbow. I will try the gloves, but I dont like wearing gloves, etc. Cant feel it hands on..........if you know what I mean? What's the odd hack between mates, eh?

The jury is still out on any product that has either heat actiavted adhesive, or pressure sensitive adhesive, including tapes, for Conservation / Museum work, this aspect needs addressing, and is being adressed. I know the Guild and the Guild's Framers committee is working very hard getting the tapes / adhesives issues sorted, but its taking time, (I myself got my eyes opened when i seen what work has been done and what still has to be done)
The Guild are concerned about this time issue, but they are in constant consultation with the relevant manufacturers, etc. and this will get resolved as soon a humanly possible.

Steven

Dermot · Post by **Dermot** » Tue 07 Jun, 2005 9:58 am

For those of you interested in adhesives Afera www.afera.com are a European wide organisation representing the interests of adhesive manufacturers…….which in turn links into the world organisation for adhesives.

The Annual Conference of Afera on in Vienna in October http://www.afera.com/confwp2005.html

Just about anyone who claims to be a serious player in the adhesive market place is represented by Afera……

I’m not quite sure what the FATG are doing with their adhesive project but hopefully they are not duplicating work already done by Afera.

Dermot

SquareFrames · Post by **SquareFrames** » Tue 07 Jun, 2005 6:03 pm

Hi,

Many thanks for that Dermot.

The Guild's research is for tapes used in the picture framing industry. To be honest I am not sure who or whom they have been in direct contact with, I am not directly invloved in the research, and it had long started before I joined the committee. Other committee members have been tasked with the research and subsequent report. But I am sure no stone has been or will be left unturned in the coming months.

The end result once all the relevant information, from the relevant people, all the technical data, whatever is required with the co-operation will all the major tape manufacturers, will be a set of standards for all tapes used in our industry and be alongside other such standards such as Prints, Giclee's, Inks, Mountboard and Faming standards.

http://www.fineart.co.uk/TapesAdhesives.asp

Steven

markw · Post by **markw** » Sat 18 Jun, 2005 10:14 am

Classic example of ignorant practice - pastel with slip mount. mount was very well executed - from the front - back of the mount was packed out with mdf and all taped up with cheap masking tape. why go to all the effort of cutting a good mount and then spoil it all by using unsuitable materials. The framer concerned does a lot of work for local artists - "because he's cheap" he isnt claiming to work to any defined standards so i guess that artists such as the one who commisioned this piece of work dont care too much about the quality of framing - outward appearance is all that matters.
My customer had commisioned the artist but didnt like the frame - she wasnt impressed that the artist had used such poor judgement in her choice of framer.

artweek · Post by **artweek** » Tue 22 May, 2007 2:31 pm

is it ok to use double sided tape to stick the two pieces of mount together before cutting if it is a double mount?

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue 22 May, 2007 3:24 pm

Hi Artweek
It is no problem using DS tape to fix mounts together.

Just make sure that the tape stays well clear of the cutting line.

You do not need to use much tape either. Just to hold the pieces together for cutting, The frame will hold the rest together.

artweek · Post by **artweek** » Tue 22 May, 2007 3:48 pm

yea I have done thousands of thousands of mounts over time just noticed how they were tlaking against doublesided tape. Checking to see if there was better ways.