The Canvas Detective

[Moglet]

Nuvver problem.

Customer brought in canvas that I stretched and framed 12 months ago. This thing is not so much sagging as bulging in the frame. (Rolf Harris could use it as a wobble board!) Regardless of the claims of the Italian 'artist' from whom they purchased it, this is yer typical HK oil (I've framed several of the same landscape in both colour and mono), and I suspect the problem may have arisen because it's a nylon canvas. Customer advises that he has (note) 'much older' stretched canvasses in the same room in the house that have never shown signs of sagging. I advised the customer that the sagging was most likely due to the material on which the image was painted, but he is trying his level best to point the dirty finger of blame at my workmanship, and wasn't having any about the quality of his 'art' purchase because he had "paid a lot - A LOT - of money for it," inferring that it couldn't possibly be a problem with the painting itself. (I must admit to being very p'd off at his attitude, which came across as though he thought I was BS-ing him. I do not, and never have, operated that way, either as engineer or framer!!!! )

One thing I noted almost immediately after bringing the piece into the workshop (in its customer-supplied bin bag) was that there was a strong musty smell emanating from it. The piece has been airing for a week now, and the smell seems to be gone from the painting and frame, but the bag (stored separately in a ball) is still whiffy. I'm not sure whether the smell came from the room in which the canvas was hanging, or whether they may have had the bin bag in a damp garage.

I have agreed as a one-off, goodwill gesture to restretch the offending article but I don't want this to run and run. I also advised him that it would be better to wet mount it to board as I thought that the problem was likely to recur, but he insisted on having it restretched. This is not a situation where the customer would thank me for telling him the nature of the painting he has bought, but I am understandably very keen to avoid being blamed for problems that arise from someone else's shoddy production techniques.

Questions I have:

1. The canvas is secured with offsets at the back (size is about 500 x 600, btw). Is it possible to secure the canvas too tightly with the offsets? This is the only potential problem I can think of WRT my workmanship, and if this has caused the problem then I don't want to repeat it.

2. If the canvas is hanging in cold/damp conditions, could this make it sag?

3. Is there any way of proving that the canvas is made from nylon? It's a murky beige colour.

4. Are there any other factors (apart from poor tensioning) that could cause the observed problem?

[markw]

Aine - can you knock out the wedges a bit? This happens - I just smile and tell the customer that he was wise to bring it back to me. I doubt that once restretched it will happen again.

[Moglet]

No such luck, Mark. It's on strainer stock. If I were to use stretcher bars , half the painting would have ended up round the back...

Besides, this is so bad that even if I had the wedge option, I'd have to knock them from here to Timbuktu to retension it.

[Moglet]

Actually that begs another (slightly off-topic) question. The only stretcher bars that I've seen available are all in imperial sizes. Do any suppliers offer stretcher bars in metric (e.g. 400, 500, 600mm sizes)?

[markw]

I get my non standard bars from Renaissance mouldings.

[Moglet]

Thanks for the lead, Mark.

[Not your average framer]

Hi Aine,

If the canvas is made of cotton, it should be possible to lightly damp the back and it should tighten as it dries.

I think you should request some catalogues of HK oils from Heritage Art supplies and from International Art Supplies which hopeful will show the same images and keep them handy to show him just in case an argument occurs. At least you will have the satisfaction of showing him how much it is really worth.

Was it you who stretched it onto stretcher stock. If so then it makes it more difficult as he could argue that he brought it to you as a expert and regardless what the canvas is made of you should be able to take whatever actions may be appropriate. I think I would restretch it and hope that he does not come back again. The sooner both owner and painting are out of your way, the better you will like it.

I would also ask why it is so smelly and suggest to him that he should not store or hang his paintings in such a damp situation as it is bad for both the frame and the art. Ask him to sign something to confirm that you have given him this advice as it may be a very helpful piece of paper if there is any further agro.

[Jonny2morsos]

Do you have a restorer locally who would be prepared to give an independent report?

That might just convince the customer you have done your best with a substandard piece of (?) artwork.

John.

[Moglet]

In an ideal world, I'd be with you 100% on the approach, Mark, but this guy seems to suspect that he has been ripped off somewhere (he has), is angry about it (justifiably), and if I were to tell him that his "pricey painting" is actually a production line painting that is cheap as chips wholesale, there is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that I'm going to be the one to cop the fallout.

If I'm reading this person's body/verbal language correctly (and I'm pretty confident I am - he was not open to a professional recommendation of an approach to solve his problem once and for all), he will take this information as a personal slight, since he appears to perceive himself as an "educated buyer." The likelihood of gaining "trustworthy kudos" here by telling him the true nature of his purchase I consider to be slim. I think he will take it as an attempt by me to wriggle out of sorting the problem. My head, heart and gut are all saying to me that he will never accept this information from me as being accurate. If I were to tell him the "ugly truth," I think he would despise me for it, go into a state of denial, and potentially try to tar my professional reputation. The only way that he would accept the truth is if it came from a disinterested third party. And what's the likelihood of that happening?

Yes, I did stretch it, but I check that all my canvasses are 'drum tight' before going out. Apart from this one, I've not to date ever had any complaints about any. Indeed, as I mentioned in another thread, I had a job in recently that I stretched 3 times before considering it OK it to the customer. Because it had sagged twice on me, I told the customer that I was concerned that it might sag again, and to bring it back for an alternative (FOC) treatment if it did, (with a qualification on reasonable timescales).

If it is something that is wrong in my methods, I will be the first to want to solve them, and have a happy customer. Thing is, I really think this canvas may sag again - it's that bad - even if it was sent out as a wrap (i.e. eliminating any problem with offsets, per my earlier question).

For this reason, I think I would like the customer to sign a disclaimer when he collects the restretched canvas, to the effect that professional advice was given that sticking down would have been the best mounting method, and that he had chosen to disregard said advice. If it's not down to something that I'm doing wrong, I don't want to be in the position where he expects me to disassemble/restrech/reassemble on an annual basis at my cost.

[Moglet]

Do you have a restorer locally who would be prepared to give an independent report?

That might just convince the customer you have done your best with a substandard piece of (?) artwork.

Nearest are in Dublin, John, and they'd charge me handsomely for the privilege. We seem to be thinking along the same lines.

[Roboframer]

When these things come in I explain that most artists will paint on an already stretched canvas and I can also show them blank stretched canvasses, primed and unprimed, so they know what proper artist canvas looks like compared to what they have brought in. I also have a 3x3ft piece of canvas under the counter, with 2x2ft of it primed - just so I can show how much give the spare canvas has compared to theirs.

Ready stretched things will not fit in to a suitcase - and the 'artists' know that fine well - so it's us poor framers that have to sort the problem.

After a year or so I'd probably do one of two things, depending on customer attitude, my own mood, etc etc.

Either I'd just re-stretch to keep the peace and show goodwill, whilst once again explaining the disadvantages of painting on unstretched canvas and stating that it would be just this once, or, once again, show many things I have around that have been stretched for years with no problem and stating that I am not responsible for things outside my control - I've applied techniques that I know and can show work.

Maybe I should buy some of this carp, with as little spare 'canvas' as possible and stretch it best I can in the hope that it will sag - just so I can show that too.

[Moglet]

I'd just like to stick my hand up here and say that part of this problem I have brought on myself by choosing not to rid HK oil buyers of their delusions. I understand why Mark (NYAF) always tells his customers about the true nature of their purchases, but I still stand by my decision not to enlighten people who have bought one of these 'artworks' since I err on the side of not wanting to make them feel bad about their uninformed purchasing decision, and instead to do my best to put them in a position to get as much enjoyment as possible out of their purchase. I feel that if I were to volunteer the 'inconvenient truth' it would add insult to injury.

I base my choice on how I would feel if I had purchased of one of these production line paintings. Whatever I chose to pay at the time, I would have been willing to part with the cash for what I saw, and I would have enjoyed the painting displayed on the wall in my home purely for the appeal it had to me as an image. If someone subsequently told me I had been ripped off by the vendor, each time I then looked at the painting, instead of enjoying the picture and feeling good, I'd be reminded of someone who took advantage of me, and I'd feel bad.

The only addition I would add is that, if someone came in with a HK oil and asked me to treat it as an "art investment," I would in such situations advise them that it was hand-painted, but that it was a reproduction; and as such, would not increase in value.

[prospero]

If it's any consolation, I had this happen to me with a painting I framed. It was already stretched, good quality fine linen canvas and definately no a HK oil. It was fine for the week or two it was in my shop, but went saggy later in the gallery I frame it for. It seems some canvases don't like certain environments. Too dry, too warm, to damp, who knows? Strangely enough I find your average HK oil is generally well behaved and tolerant of changing conditions. This one sounds a bit peculiar as HK oils are typically on pale blue ground. (anti-fungus primer).

You need to put it on keyed stretchers. As long as there is 1/2" margin it can be done. Just put the staples closer together.

I agree totally with the metric sizes issue btw. I get a lot of imported canvases to stretch and some are imperial, some are metric and some appear to be a mixture of both.

[Moglet]

You need to put it on keyed stretchers. As long as there is 1/2" margin it can be done. Just put the staples closer together.

That's the foundation of my confidence in the initial stretch. I'm suitably generous with the stapling (none of this 3" apart mullarky that one sees from other sources.).

I've been toying with fraying a thread from the edge of the problem canvas and applying heat to it to see if it will produce a telltale plastic globule at the end of it.

[Moglet]

I am currently toying with the idea that, if backed into a corner on this project, to advise the customer, to take the piece to an assessor/restorer (at his cost) for an independent assessment of the nature of the beast that he has purchased.

I'd also welcome suggestions for the wording of a suitable disclaimer to cover me against future (unreasonalbe) requests to have this canvas stretched again... and again... and again...

Thanks to the mammy I understand fabric behaviour quite well, and for the nature of this problem piece I have my experience to date as a framer to add to that, and my gut says that I don't think stretching is gonna cure this problem. Unless someone here can convince me that my stretching practices/use of offsets is incorrect, he's not going to get corrective work done FOC a second time.

[prospero]

I am currently toying with the idea that, if backed into a corner on this project, to advise the customer, to take the piece to an assessor/restorer (at his cost) for an independent assessment of the nature of the beast that he has purchased.

I'd also welcome suggestions for the wording of a suitable disclaimer to cover me against future (unreasonalbe) requests to have this canvas stretched again... and again... and again...

Thanks to the mammy I understand fabric behaviour quite well, and for the nature of this problem piece I have my experience to date as a framer to add to that, and my gut says that I don't think stretching is gonna cure this problem. Unless someone here can convince me that my stretching practices/use of offsets is incorrect, he's not going to get corrective work done FOC a second time.

Now who's copping out?

Probably a wise course of action though..

[Moglet]

Now who's copping out?

Personally, I see it as covering my ass!

[prospero]

Personally, I see it as covering my ass!

That's a new technique. Not really the way to treat a customer's painting though.

[ross]

A down under view Aine!

Having read through these posts, it seems to me you are worrying unduely - you know you are doing good work, you have done plenty of canvas stretching and now you have one that is playing up

You have got an unhappy customer - don't worry about a disclaimer with him - far better to redo and try and make him a happy customer - a customer who will speak well of your professionalism and quality of work - if you have to redo a third time, so what - keep the issue between him and you - don't have him as a bad advertisement for your business in the local community

I know it is easier said than done, but accept the issue and resolve as best you can and be able to shake hands as he departs with unit under his arm

I liked Robbo's idea of a couple of sample units to show "how it is done" - that might be the learning curve from this exercise

Aquestion for Prospero - if a HK canvas is coloured blue, does that always indicate that an anti-fungal application has been placed on the canvas before the painting was done - how can one be sure of this?

Ross

[Moglet]

Hi Ross,

I see where you're coming from, but performing fix after fix could also backfire, i.e. he could say that I did it time after time and still didn't get it right.