Fine Art Trade Guild

[BonoFido]

Not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it appears that in an effort to better understand the framing community, the FATG is conducting a survey on their site at http://www.fineart.co.uk/Framing%20Survey%202004.htm They call it a MARKET RESEARCH TO ASSIST FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS & ACTIVITIES

From the questions asked, it looks as if it is aimed at members only. Maybe they should also take an interest in non-members and try to get away from the “if you’re not with us you’re against us” bunker mentality that seems to prevail. After all, it must surely be in their interest to find out why some intelligent, competent, even reasonably successful framers choose not to join.

[SquareFrames]

I hardly think the survey was directed at 'members only' as you say, after all, the FATG have no control over who views or chooses to view their website, and therefore would have had no control over who replied to the survey. By the by, you never said whether you completed the survey or not, did you?

I agree totally with you in respect of FATG do need to know why a lot of framers, gallery owners, etc. choose not to join, and also why some choose to leave. Well, now you have got your chance, let me know and I will compile the reasons why and inform the Guild?

Steven

[BonoFido]

Hi Stephen,

I would like to see a less ‘elitist’ FATG. I know this is a bit nebulous, but I’m sure there are many who understand just what I mean, even though this is a difficult idea to put into words.

For example, the FATG seems to be taking the stance that it is our own fault that it falls short of our expectations, because we won’t join, or re-join, to make it better.

Why have they not promoted this forum as something positive within our industry, and encourage members and non-members to share ideas for the common good? Maybe if they did, this thread would die out and we could all sigh with relief and move on.

BF

[Guest]

Hi BF

That's one I cannot answer and to be honest with you, I have no idea why the Guild heirarchy havent come on board and aired their views, its not as if I didnt let them know what was going on at the last meeting in London 2 weeks ago. I just hope that its not being monitored by some in the Guild office and I am not going to made a scape goat.

I personally would love Rosie Sumner the MD to come on board and air the views from her perspective and answer the questions posed by those who have spoken. Knowing Rosie as I do she she will fight tooth and nail for the good name of the Guild, as I do, but unlike Rosie I am a member and I get a tad disheartened at times, but never enough to make me leave or even contemplate leaving.

I know the extremely hard work and dedication to their objectives that goes on behind those doors in the London office, to improve the standards in our business, and to be quite frank not everyone is going to happy, no matter what she, the office staff or the Guild does. But what I can tell you is this....the Guild is not elitest, nor does it claim to be, and nor will it ever be, the Guild is simply the trade association that represents the art and framing industry and will always be so, nothing more and certainly nothing less. I for one do not consider myself elitest, I am but a humble framer, but one thing is for sure, I will be a member for as long as I am trading, or until I am finally carried out of my workshop.

The Guild, (and yes I would single out Rosie and her staff here) deserve a lot more respect for what they strive to achieve and for what they have achieved, and they also deserve to be supported for their achievements in making your industry reach the highest of standards for which members of the general public are more than happy with.

Thank you,

Steven

[Underpinner]

As I understand it from this forum, it was the end of February (this year) when one of our members volunteered to bring our discussion to the attention of senior personnel within the FATG, and I believe that he did so almost immediately. Then, just over three weeks later, we were informed that these matters had been discussed at "all 3 levels of the FATG" on March 25th (WOW! I'm impressed!).
Now it it a fortnight later still (April 8th) and we have still received not as much as an acknowledgement from the guild. What on earth can they be waiting for?
It would be discourteous enough, not to mention downright inefficient, not to reply to an ordinary letter, sent by post, for all of five weeks. There is no excuse whatever for failing to at least acknowledge our discussion by means of a post on this forum, preferably with a promise to provide a more comprehensive reply after the requisite number of committee meetings etc. (if the poor dears really cannot cope without such meetings).
I am of the opinion that we need no further proof of the guild's lack of concern for the interests of small framing businesses. I suggest that those who really do not feel the need for a national trade organisation should just carry on as before and that those who do want a framers organisation should get on and start one.

[John]

Wouldn't it be great if the forum could realise its potential as a useful resourse for the FATG, framers, and everyone associated with the business?

But, maybe there is a downside that I just cannot see.

Is there a reason why any element within the picture framing world might feel threatened by the forum?

John

[sarah]

Squareframes said:
"I hardly think the survey was directed at 'members only' as you say, after all, the FATG have no control over who views or chooses to view their website, and therefore would have had no control over who replied to the survey. By the by, you never said whether you completed the survey or not, did you?"

Folks sorry to keep his thread active about the FATG but I find it a little disconcerting that the guild would want to "control" those who fill in their survey.

Mr square frames you suggest in the rest of your post that the FATG are not elitist yet you remark on the fact they have "no control" suggesting that somehow they wish they did.

My experience has been of an 'old boys' club and it is obvious from a few remarks on here that others feel this way too. So prehaps words are not enough show us that the FATG are for ALL rather than just a FEW

[SuareFrames]

Sarah!

Twisting words?

1. Where in my posting did I say or 'suggest' that the Guild would want to control who views their website? Why on earth would they? If they wanted that they would have password controlled it, the site is in the public domain and will continue to be so, for the viewing of 'ALL not the FEW'

2. Yes, I did complete the survey, did you? If you want to see my answers, email me at tsframes@aol.com, I will be only to happy to send them to you. If you completed the survey, I would like to see your answers.

3. Why do you find it disconcerting that the Guild would want to control who fill in their survey. Like I stated and will reiterate once again, the Guild, like 'any other' big company, small business or any personal website that is, once completed and uploaded onto the WWW, have NO, I say again NO control who views the site. Infact they probably evaluate the hits they get on a regualr basis, but in no way do they BLOCK anyone form viewing the their sites. This is true for all types of businesses. Is that not clear, so why should the Guild be any different? The Guild are only too pleased for non members to view their site and if so complete the survey. The Guild's website has many thousands of hits per week / month / year by people wanting to join, and those just simply looking for information on the standards, Code of Ethics, the bookshop, etc., etc., etc.,

4. Like Sarah says folks, "I am also sorry to keep this thread going" I am sick to the teeth of people slagging the Guild off, and NOT giving valid reason(s) why. Sarah, you also never stated whether you are or have ever been a member, and if you have been, why did you leave? (I personally would love to hear your reasons)

5. You say in your experience that the Guild is an 'old boys club', where did you get that idea from? Is this because there are many, many members that have been members for many, many years? Any person with any wit would and should be able to see what the Guild stands for, what work it has done has ONLY been for the benefit of the industry, and the work and research it has in the pipeline at the moment will all be completed in the near future, again WILL BE for the benefit of the industry, NOT just for members of the Guild.

*I am surmising here, that you are a framer, and for example, you probably use mountboard by either Arqadia, Colourmount and others, these companies have all now got onboard and are producing their products inline with the Guild's new mountboard standards, (infact they assisted the Guild in setting the standards), and are continuing to improve the quality, what I am trying to say is, these companies do not just supply FATG members with their high quality products, they supply to 'ALL not the FEW'

The standards the Guild has set obviously has benefited everyone in this industry, and the standards it will continue to research and set will also be for the benefit of 'ALL, not just a FEW' (Sorry to be blunt here, but even a blind man could see that) So there are the ACTIONS, and you cannot refute that.

SquareFrames Out
(Steven)

[James Miller]

...the FATG seems to be taking the stance that it is our own fault that it falls short of our expectations, because we won’t join, or re-join, to make it better...
BF

It is interesting that commentary on this topic is very similar to what American framers say about their PPFA, both for and against. Picture framers seem to be alike the world over. BonoFido's opinion is almost exactly the same as that of some non-PPFA members in the USA.

[SquareFrames]

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the forum, I hope you get all you want out of it?

I agree with you that both members and non members have got their gripes about their resepctive associations, this will never stop, and to be honest I think the Fine Art Trade Guild, and maybe the PPFA (I dont know a loot about them to be honest), would not like the gripes to stop. This is how the associations can glean vital information to enable them to grow and 'get it right' for all those involved. Altough, like most people I am a realist, no matter what the FATG or PPFA do, it will never be right, there are some who cannot see the wood for the trees and have to constantly gripe, whinge, moan, berate...whatever you call it, nothing is right.

These associations can only grow, both for the good of the industry as a whole and the for retailer from the inside. People must learn that the FATG and the PPFA are working non stop to set the industries standards, and working hard to get a level playing field for everyone, including those people who are not members. I bet those who are not members stiil use the standards thats have been helped set by the FATG or PPFA.

Change must come from within, and can only happen quicker from within, and those who choose to sit on the outside, constantly shouting in, (although their comments are noted) must at sometime begin to realise this and come on board and help make this wonderful industry, .BETTER' for all concerned, including the consumer, after all and in my personal opinion, the consumer being led by today's society are beginning to realise themselves that if their framer belongs to a bonafide association, that they are professional enough to not only frame their work, but also, most importantly. take care of it.

I have 2 pieces of advice for any framer who wnats this industry to change for the better, whether they be in the UK, Eire, New Zealand, the USA, or wherever, they would be simply be:

1. Join your respective association (help make the association work for you)
2. Get qualified (show your customers / clients that you have the ability to care for their artwork. I know someone will come back at me and say 'I can care for the artwork', well thats all well and good, but SHOW your customers)

Obviously, living in the UK, and as a long time member of the FATG I will always plump for the FATG and the GCF scheme. The GCF scheme is recognised world-wide as the premier qualification for picture framers, one that I am proud to hold, including one of the Advanced modules, and I take the time to explain this to all my customers, it doesnt hurt!

Steven
Square Frames

[markw]

Squareframes
I have never been asked my formal qualifications - (GCF) I have never had anyone comment that they feel reassured that i am a member of the fine art trade guild - I cant recall anyone phoning me to say that they spotted my name in Yelo pages under the FATG collective ad - with added GCF status. nobody has ever emailed me after looking at the guild website with my contact details.
I do have a GCF sticker displayed prominently on my shop door - I have both FATG and GCF logos on the company stickers for frame backs. I attend branch meetings - and network with other framers - FATG and non FATG - I dont lack commitment to this industry. Yet, i dont believe the FATG do enough for the money. If the public are not aware of the issues involved with framing their precious artwork what difference does it make to them how its framed - apart from the price.
I agree that we have a responsibility to educate our customer - i do, and i achieve good results in the form of higher pricing - but i know that most of my customers want good value for money - tha fact that i persuade them to go for a higher standard is purely down to my ability to sell - what i want is customers coming through the door demanding high standards because they have seen that this is what they should expect - that requires high profile PR from our industry - constantly hitting the message home - I dont see it apart from makeover programmes where they seem to suggest that you pop down to ikea to get a cheap readymade for that instant designer look - I dont blame the FATG entirely - the industry itself does little to promote its wares to the public - when did you last see an ad in a weekend colour suppliments extolling the virtues of a particular designer look from a moulding manufacturer - framers are their customer and they dont see beyond that point. (print publishers are getting much better at this - and its paying off - I do get customers asking for particular prints).
In conclusion, as individual businesses we can do our bit, but untill we get real inspiration from FATG then we wont move the industry forward - its also worth adding that for the amount of money membership of the FATG costs me i expect them to do the work - not the branch masters and members in the field.

[Merlin]

Yet again we go round in circles. Both Steven and Markw make good and valid points.
As I have stated in previous posts. I am a member of FATG and a GCF. I am also a member of the Guild of MasterCraftsmen.
The former costs me £175 per year and I have only received 1 (one) framing job because I am a member.
The latter costs me £100 per year and to date have received 3 (three) framing jobs due to being a member. This is I believe is due to the GMC being more visible, in advertising and promotional awareness than the FATG.
Outside of the Fine Art world, I have not seen any advertising or information about the FATG, yet the GMC are in the National Daily papers.
Once every 3 (three) months I receive a courtesy telephone call from the GMC Regional Branch Representative. Not once in 7 years have I received a call from the FATG asking 'How am I doing' or giving information on the latest information from their offices.

Like Steven, I do believe in being a member of a 'professional' organisation, they can and do help, but come on !!! These organisations have to help themselves and like MarkW states. We want customers coming through the door, because they have seen the standards set by these organisations.

Industry have an unwritten rule. - 'Promote the troublemakers'. Yes I have even seen that happen. In fact only last year - as in my previous posts - I have written, telephoned and emailed the FATG about the numbers (or lack of) of members in Cornwall and there only being 2 (two) GCF in the whole of Cornwall. I did have to smile. I was offtered the position of becoming a GCF examiner !!!!!
I will still spend a lot of time with each and every customer, educating where I can and upselling where need be. They pay my outgoings, nobody else.

[markw]

Guilty - i have made these points before - I have to admit that i was persuaded to rejoin the FATG having left for a couple of years - mainly because the membership fee was too high - and i was very disapointed at the level of proffesionalism by the management team - to be honest, I still am. As an industry we tend to be small businesses - often 1 or 2 people - with little time to do anything but get the work done and out of the door - money in the bank - i suspect that like me, many of us are involved in the community - I dont see my commiting time to running up to London for Guild meetings as i know my local branch master does ( To his and many others that do this i have nothing but praise). It might be better to ask the question in another posting " what should a proffesional body such as the FATG be doing for us" with maybe some suggestions as to what we should be doing as individuals to enhance our industry.

[Cornish Framer]

I have read all of the comments with interest. I am an artist and for the last 5 years have also been a framer, intially working for a small company until last year I set up in business running a gallery & framers. We contemplated for some time whether to join the guild when we first opened, but have not as yet as we felt that the fee was rather high for our small set up and we wanted to find out if any of our customers even asked..
Although we saw benefits with the discounts on insurance etc. we found we could also get all of these and more by joining the Federation of Small Businesses which has a very active Cornwall branch. It has not only a national magazine but also a local one and many local events. I realise that they do not offer advice on actual framing but if the FATG wants to offer a better service via its magazine more info on legislation (employment laws, tax, VAT, ) instead of all these pages covering members dinner events etc would be of more use to us little people. I do subscribe to the magazine and for example cannot recall seeing any information about the disabled access law which will come into effect this October. This will effect all of us who offer a service to the public.
With regards to whether the public are aware of the FATG I don't think that 95% are. For example I am often offered Giclee prints by artists ( people who work in our industry!) and when I ask if they have heard of the FATG standards most have no idea of what or who they are!
It is all very well telling customers about the benefits once they are through the door but once through, most ,if offered good service and the right price are likely to go ahead with the order anyway. If they are then happy with the result they are likely to return. Most of my customers use me because I am local, offer easy parking facilities, a good service and quality frames and an understanding of what visually works. It also helps that my Galleries name begins with an A and therefore is at the top of the listings in Yellow Pages!
It is all very well going on a GCF training course and getting qualified but you can't learn the ins and outs of framing in a weekend! Surely a proper trade qualification should involve some sort of college course or apprentiship. That would mean that someone like myself who worked for a number of years for another business could have trained on the job and gained the GCF that way. If you could then take the exam in your own workshop using your own equipment it would show a far more realistic result of what you will eventually be offering your clients.
Also if the public are to be made more aware of the FATG then it shouldn't only be marketed in trade magazines, but also in homes and interiors magazines,, antiques publicatons, weekend suppliments and local magazines such as Cornwall Today ( which has a huge arts section). If they spend some money on promoting the Gulid to the potential customers then people like me might just think it's worth joining!

[SquareFrames]

Hi Cornish Framer,

I have read your reply with interest, and I can tell you that the Guild are currently working improving the benefits and also the promotion of itself, but as I am sure you are aware promotion (especially in the right places)costs an awaful lot of money, so before any decent promotional drive can take place, this has to be raised.

I am also in constant contact with the two people charged with this job and have also shown them the benefits of the FSB, and I cannot see for any reason whatsoever why the Guild could not adopt similar benefits. The benefits of FSB was also brought up at the last Branch Masters meeting in March 2004, so things are starting to move.

One thing I was very disappointed in this year was the cancellation of the Artists' Touring Exhibition, this had been 6 years on tour and had been very successful in our gallery. Unfortunately, recently I have had to resign from the Artists committee to take up another post within the Guild, but at the last meeting the committee discussed the total lack of interest from 75% of the artist members to paint 1 piece, yes I said '1 piece' of work and submit it for the tour, the tour. This is being adressed as we speak. The tour was always launched at the Guild Awards dinner and then went on tour around the country, always ending up in my gallery in Northern Ireland, but as I said it had to be cancelled this year, but I know it will be back, hopefully next year. Artists such as Gordon King and Jorge Aguilar-Agon, and also David Shepherd OBE, three of the Guild's leading lights and also the UK's most respected artists have worked tirlessly to promote the artists membership section and their work is now paying off with more and more artists joining the Guild and becoming involved.

Great to hear your views.

Steven
SquareFrames

[markw]

The FATG have been around for an awfully long time to just get around to thinking about benefits - promotions etc. The FSB is a good example of an organisation where most of its members join just for the benefits - representation at tax investigations being one of the prime incentives. The FATG have a bigger role to play than the FSB - and we need to see the bigger picture (forgive the pun). I would suggest to the FATG a number of actions.
Be more proactive in its dealings with the "trade" - talking to forums like this would be a start.
Encourage artists to understand framing - I dont know why the FATG dont have a lecture tour - every little village seems to have an art group - promotion at grass roots level is often very productive.
Cut its administrative costs by moving out of Central London - reinvest in building a bigger membership by slashing the cost of basic membership - it shouldnt be more than £100 PA - I would invite all new framing businesses to join for free for the first year.

The FATG should be a body that any self respecting art / framing business couldnt do without - you just have to look at cornish framers posting to realise that is not how it is today.

Any other ideas - we can send them on to the FATG and show that a forum can be usefull.

[SquareFrames]

Hi,

Like any other organisation, they 'learn' as they progress, at the begining they do not profess to know it all or even get it right, but eventually they will, but it has got to be 'with input from fellow framers / gallery pwners, etc'.

I stated that I showed the Guild the benefits of the FSB, this was just an organisation that had been brought to my attention, until then I didnt even know they existed and officilly still dont (only from what I found out myself, they havent been to see me), I could have showed them the benefits from any other organisation.

I do agree that the Guild can learn from the FSB, but with hindsight I am sure the Guild did the best they could at the time of negotiating the benefits on offer. As the framing business grows, and times change, so the Guild have to change as well, and that is what they are doing. 'Out of little acorns, Oaks grow' (if thats the right saying)

If you have any input (after all, Markw I set up a posting after one of your last postings of how we could make an organisation better, not too many people have even contributed, including yourself). Bashing the Guild at every opportunity is no good, if you actually belive what you say about making the Guild better, tell the Guild, all input helps, whether good or not so good. Be procative, after all its in your own interests in the long run.

As for lecture tours, the Guild have a Branch network of meetings in every part of the country, artists have the opportunity to go to all meetings, why dont they go?

In my own personal defence, I go to all these piddly little village art clubs and tell the artists, both good and bad the benefits of getting their artwork framed correctly, the problem normally is......the art teacher, they are not known for having any flair in the framing department and mostly the choosing of mount colours, but the ones I have been to are, lilke the Guild, on the change.

Steven
SquareFrames

[markw]

Square frames
"If you have any input (after all, Markw I set up a posting after one of your last postings of how we could make an organisation better, not too many people have even contributed, including yourself)."
I think you will find i am the third or fourth posting on this subject. I do make an effort to contribute locally and nationally.

How long has this acorn got to grow before it matures? The date 1847 appears on my membership certificate - but that could just be the print sellers association. it makes me think that perhaps its been there too long and needs a radical shake up. Within a twenty mile radius of my business are approx ten framers - some big - most small - two are FATG members. the facts speak for themself - the FATG are not attracting members. No 1 reason - its to expensive.

I will be attending a branch function tomorrow evening - hopefully there will be twenty plus members there - it will be a pleasant evening if the sun shines as its a BBQ (good forcast) - but in reality this is a very low number of members for a large and affluent area of the uk (Cotswolds / oxford/gloucestershire) -

Cornish framer is a good example of the avarage business in this trade - the FATG mean nothing to them,to the average artist even less - surely as a member i should be asking why they perform so badly , attracting so few members. With such a low percentage of members should i not call into question their ability to have any influence on the trade as a whole.

I have never seen a survey in ABT based on how many art/ framing businesses there are in the UK - I think it would shame the FATG if the percentage of that figure who were members was known. I would take a very generous guess at 10%

[SquareFrames]

Hi Markw,

I am in total agreement with you, and I to have my beefs and disagreements and grieviences with the Guild, I am not that blinkered, but I agree the Guild needs to attract new members, and do it sooner rather than later, but I do disagree that the fees are too expensive, they are no more or no less than any other similar organisation. (My opinion, others have differing views, anyhow.......)

Yes, the Guild has been around since 1910 when it amalgamted with the Print Sellers Association, but surley way back then, whats on offer now would not have been available and benefits come and go all the time. (So we cannot blame who ever was in caharge at that time) Who ever sorted out the benefits (before my time, as they havent changed much since) did the best they could have with what was available at that particular time, but like I said, times are a changing, so everything has to change with it and I for one am quite willing to wait and see what happens over the coming few months, or longer, but I do know that in the meantime I am suitably enough covered in case of litigation with regard standards, and my framing, etc. which I think is most important in our business, others may feel differently, we know that, but thats life, we all think differently.

There was a survey on the Guild website, I honestly am not sure whether they published it in ABT, if not they should have, and maybe even Picture Business, there is an ABT on the way very soon, we will see then. I do know what results that have been sent in so far have been collated and are going some way to improving things as they stand, as for any further information, I, like you and others am not privy to that, as yet, but we can wait and see what happens.

I want the Guild to be a necessity for our business, rather than a 'will I' or 'wont I' situation, but the thing is, if I have anything to say to or about the Guild, I do it in 2 ways, (1) telephone call and (2) follow up email, to which I always get a reply either the same day or the next, with a reason why something is not happening or why it has happened (if that makes sense?), I cannot understand why some people dont get replies, I know it has happened, but cannot understand it.

In the future, I hope the Guild have all the bases covered with their benefits, including representation for court cases that could arise, mortgages, insurance cover for vehicles, whatever we as members would feel we need and expect, etc. I, like you, only have within a 10 mile radius have at 11 high street framers, with only myself and 4 others are members and yes, I agree a shake up is required to attract new members and promote our business, but lets be positive and pull together, thats the way things get done.

Steven
SquareFrames

[Merlin]

I do not know where Cornish Framer is from. I am in West Cornwall. I have come across the same situation. Some Extremely well known publishing artists have returned the same comment. Who are the FATG.

I have also been out and about at the local colleges, teaching/talking about framing and mounting. The teaching staff at these educational premises have also said that they have not heard of the FATG.

So just maybe this Acorn, needs a damn good watering, so it can start growing and making its presence known because it really is in danger of becoming just another 'weed' that nobody likes.

The following is a reply from Rosie Sumner written October 2003.
I wrote mentioning The Grumble and how good it was at forwarding information and giving help.

Thanks for this helpful enlightenment. I think we may well, before too long, have a forum. But if and when we do, it needs to be properly resourced to ensure that any misleading information is quickly corrected and that its parameters, objective etc. if needed are clearly understood.

Yes this was a reply. Just that. Nothing else. Nothing in ABT.

Just how many other letters get the standard reply and then are 'shelved'
doesnt give one confidence in starting any other letters in the future does it?