Starting out..... help needed!

[monks]

Afternoon all..... in need of some expert advice and hoping you'll be able to help...... I run a small gallery and have been thinking about adding a small framing operation to the business as feels like we're missing a trick.....

In terms of volume of framing, we sell maybe 6 to 10 framed prints a week in the gallery.... we don't have space in the gallery to have a permanent framing setup onsite so would probably have to do it offsite, potentially at home to begin with. Space is therefore one concern.

Given that we wouldn't be framing any great volume of work to begin with and don't have much space, how do you recommend we go about it? I'm guessing there'll be a few of you who started out in a similar position?

From what I gather using a chop service probably makes sense for us? If we were to use a chop service, what equipment and how much space would we need?

Any help / advice greatly appreciated as a bit lost with it all.....

[countrystudio]

Using a chop service makes lots of sense but watch your cariage charges. You could easily work from home on this basis. All you would need to find space for is a work bench and an underpinner. Some manual models are quite space efficient. 'Working with glass could be an issue if you cut your own but you could ask your local glazier for a good price and work with him until you decide to do your own glass work. Good luck.

[framemaker]

Hi Monks, welcome to the forum

Chop service could really work well for you.

You would then need an underpinner and a mountcutter (this could be stored under a bench or wall mounted when not in use), a work bench to assemble and cut glass on, backing board such as ArtBak could be cut by hand on the bench or on the mountcutter if it has a 90 degree attachment. You would need some storage space for mountboards, backing, and glass.

What sort of sized area do you think you could make available? I think it is surprising how even in the smallest work area can be used effectively.

[Roboframer]

If you've never joined a frame/not joined many frames before then it's not a good idea to learn on chop service; you get just the one shot and screwing up on something that can cost almost twice the price as buying length isn't funny.

With the sort of volume you state (which would/could of course dramatically increase if you offered a custom framing service in your gallery) I think an idea may be to do some stuff yourself and to sub some out, until such time as you are ready to take the lot on.

E.g. - if you invested in a pro mountcutter like the ultimat gold (which would also cut backing boards like artbak and corricor) and a good hand-held glass cutter, then all you'd need doing for you would be the frame, and I'm sure, with 6-10 frames a week, that you could strike up a deal with a framer.

But take a framing course or two first as well - check the Picture Framer's Directory in the left sidebar - there's one near you

[Gus]

Hi, I am a new member of the forum and new to the business side of framing. I recognise your predicament! And would endorse roboframers suggestion for training. I started with tlhe business development course at DIY framing. I have taken other courses as well, which were equaLly as good. I would suggest that if you are producing 2 frames a day you need to use professional equipment. I startedt out with hobby equipment that produced a good product that I could sell, but took so long making them that I had to upgrade or get a divorce - as I was spending all night in the workshop!
Check out DIY framing courses (others are available) and talk to the trainer about your particular circs, he will give you advice pertinent to your business and not try and up sell to you. Also, if you learn how to frame with the basic equipment it is a doddle when you do upgrade!
I operate (successfully) from a 6ft x 7m conservatory so know all about space issues!
Good luck with your venture.

[monks]

Thanks for the replies. Very welcoming and greatly appreciated. As I was reading through them just now had a guy walk into the gallery and ask if we do framing..... surely an omen.....

Framemaker - in terms of space, I'd be using our loft extension to begin with. We have a spare bedroom up there that's maybe 11ft or 12ft x 9ft. Adjacent to that is another smaller room in the loft that I already use for storage (A0 plan chest, paintings etc). This space could also be used to store mountboards, backing, glass. In theory (and wife permitting) I could take the partition walls down and would the have a decent space to work with.

Roboframer - doing some and subcontracting the rest out definitely a good idea to begin with. Would also definitely do a course or two. How proficient can I expect to be after a week long course? Confident enough to get going? I've also got loads of photographs that we need to have framed up at home so plenty of stuff to material to get practicing on....

Gus - time is a concern. My wife would go nuts if I spent too long on it.

Some more questions.... what is the difference in markup (and the difference in time takes) between the two options......

A - Using a chop service and having the glass cut to size
B - Doing it all myself.... buying by length and cutting the glass myself

[mikeysaling]

spare bedroom sounds good - my concern would be getting glass up there ! and if you eventually gravitate to a 'chopper' getting it up there may be a prob - and is the floor solid enough to take the weight.

[prospero]

Hi and Welcome Monks.

Most of the skill in framing is in the mounting. I would concentrate on that aspect first. Making the actual frames is really very basic when it comes down to it. (Any silly bugger can do it - four bits of wood stuck together. ) Same thing with glass, it's just cutting sheets to size. If space is limited, there is no harm in getting your frames made and glass cut elsewhere. But the frames will be made to your design and specifications. That is the important part.

So I would seek out a course on mounting. The subject is vast and complicated. Save the cash you would have spent on on a chopper and underpinner and get a top-rank mountcutter. I would even get a vacuum press before frame cutting/joining gear if I were in your situation. Most framers favour the Keencut Ultimat. Nice machine. Personally I like the C&H cutters.

Later on, if the service takes off and farming out the frame-making and glass cutting becomes a pain, that's when you can consider another workshop somewhere dedicated to frame-making and glass cutting.

[misterdiy]

I agree with bits of most posts but not all of any of them.

Firstly, if you are running a gallet=ry then I expect you are selling high quality frames to go with the artwork. Despite what prospero says, its not every bugger that can knock a frame together otherwise there would be no picture framers as it would become a home based diy opertaion.

The truth is picture framing is a skill that is developed over a long time and also by using good equipment. That does not come cheap. Prospero has the best idea to my mind and that is to buy a mountcutter and produce the mounted prints to put into a frame that another professional has made, which is part of Robo's suggestion.

To make good frames you MUST have a morso or professional mitre saw. These are available on the second hand market and a Morso would knock you back around £700. An underpinner can be bought much more cheaply but to get the best results I believe a pneumatic underpinner to be the best. if you are joing gallery style mouldings it would be preferable to use a pneumatic underpinner to ensure you pull the moulding up tight.

None of these of course sit happily up the top of the stairs and your wife may well be totally p****d off with the compressor.

So in short my recommendations are: Buy the mountcutter, do the course and sub the framing. Its safest and will not damage your business that way when you dont get the kind of joins you want. Chop service is very expensive and for what you pay on chop you could get someone to produce them for you.

[prospero]

heheheee...... Well granted, some buggers can do it much better than others.
But making a frame involves only one skill - cutting a good corner and fixing it firmly and in good alignment. But aesthetic considerations apart, the frame simply serves to hold the glass/mount/back together and to fix the hangings to.

[Roboframer]

How proficient can I expect to be after a week long course? Confident enough to get going? I've also got loads of photographs that we need to have framed up at home so plenty of stuff to material to get practicing on....

A week-long course dedicated to the type of frames you're already selling your stuff in (assuming mounted and framed prints/photos/etc on paper and maybe stuff on stretched canvas) would set you up very well, especially if you have plenty of your own similar stuff to frame/practice on before making stuff to actually sell.

But when it comes to offering a custom framing service, opposed to just doing your own framing for what you're already selling, you can't really, not with experience only on basic things like that. What you gonna do if the first job that comes through your door is a friggin' violin or something, or even a X stitch?

In a (one-to-one) week you could take a course covering those things and more though - the violin (or other 3-dimensional object) would still need a moulding mitred/joined and glass cut; so would the X stitch, plus mounts and/or spacers. Machinery takes care of that stuff and would be covered on the first day and practiced on every task every day after - each job ends up in a frame!

Look for training that also leaves you with PERSONAL SKILLS that machinery can't take care of, like how to mount that violin (or whatever), stretch that X stitch, float mount that thing that has to be shown in its entirety, put the programme on the football shirt with no adhesive ........ get the design right with the customer, be a salesman - turn the glass replacement job in to a total re-frame - ..... know the pros and cons of different suppliers .... etc!

[monks]

Thanks again all. Glad I posted on here. Plenty of food for thought.

Sounds like using the loft isn't going to work so need to have a think again on that front (the wife will be happy). With a bit of adjustment and dividing the space up I could potentially have some equipment upstairs in the gallery and do the rest at home.

In terms of what I'd be framing for in here...... it's essentially prints. Screenprints, lithographs, giclee. All very contemporary. Original works on canvas, we generally don't have them framed. We only sell a few photographic prints. Typical frame used in here is a deep(ish) white or black box frame, either with the print either straight in or float mounted.

I wouldn't want to get into framing stuff outside of this. At least initially. I hadn't even thought about people coming in and wanting other stuff framed up.....

Other stuff flying around my head now..... getting a workshop space somewhere? Employing a framer? Initially I think the best thing to do is take a course and see what that throws up.

Thanks again for the responses. All very useful and greatly appreciated.

[Not your average framer]

I run my own framing business in a shop which is very limited for space and I have a Morso, an underpinner and a system 4000 glass and board cutter all in full view of any customers who care to come into my shop.

This has never been a serious handicap to my business and customers are impressed to see me working.

If possible, may I recommend that you consider running the whole operation from your shop premises as there are positive advantages. It is not easy being in two places at once and doing it all in one places means that:

1. You can receive deliveries of framing materials at your business premises, do the framing at the same location and your customers will want to call there to collect as well.

2. When you are not having to commit yourself to serving customers, then you are free to be framing, but still on hand to serve the next customer to arrive.

3. When you close the shop and go home, your wife will be pleased not to have to compete with your business and framing activities for attention.

[holtons]

If you get a request for a multi-aperture mount or any other mount that will take ages to do, let us know and we can knock it up on our CMC for you. That way you can concentrate on the things that you can tur around in a sensible time.
Steve

[sinbad72]

I have been doing the framing for a local print shop for a long time now. The guy has his own framing equipment but not the skills or the time to do it all himself. He subs the work out to me. He actually supplies the moulding that is to be used. I charge for my time, glass and boards. It works well for both of us. One thing that Ive noticed though is that he seems to pass on the awkward jobs on to me and keeps the easy ones for himself. Its his business so why not. I'll not complain though. He pays my mortgage I think a similar situation would suit yourself if you can find a framer. What Im saying is dont be afraid of going for it. You will learn along the way. If a job comes in that you are not skilled enough YET to do, simply farm it out.