Commercial Framers vs Conservation Framers

[Not your average framer]

Having noticed that Allistair refers to himself as a commercial framer and looking through various posts, I would suspect that there are a few more members who might well include themselves in that description.

Also we have some who are big on the conservation oriented side of this business and from time to time there is a bit of banter (some times more) between the two types of business owners.

So, how about a little challenge between these two groups. All we need is some rope and we could have a "tug of war" contest at the next FFlive event. Perhaps the losing team could buy the winning team a drink.

Anyone up for it? I reckon it could be really good fun. I wonder who the team captains might be?

[Steve Goodall]

I am guessing it would depend on the type of rope used. One side preferring synthetic & the other only willing to compete if it is made from natural fibres

[Not your average framer]

We could always tie two different ropes together in the middle.

[Steve Goodall]

Tie??? Glueing might be stronger??? But then again it might not be reversible

[stcstc]

well i would be on the commercial team i guess

size of me, we win!!!!

also we would all be allowed to glue our boots to the floor

[mikeysaling]

who is going to be alan sugar ?

[Roboframer]

also we would all be allowed to glue our boots to the floor

Yup - and you could glue your anchorman to a wall* ; the conservation team would be tied to the floor and their anchorman roped to the wall.

*You would of course have to be glued in place the night before to let it cure

[Graysalchemy]

I think the real problem is that most of us 'commercial' framers could fit in the conservation camp, a lot of my work is to conservation standard as well as volume work. I doubt many conservation framers have the means to multiple disciplines and carry out a decent commercial job.

There you go first left hook..

[Roboframer]

...... taken well, countered with a straight right ... http://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 77&p=47670

Oops - the SIM cards were Melinex encapsulated - (customer wanted them to be 'shiney') artcare boards - surely not a commercial conservation job? ..... ah ... no ..... no UV glass, bummer!

[Graysalchemy]

You just assume I couldn't or wouldn't order shiney mount board and yes I actually have 3 sheets of uv glass in stock. However I doubt you would have the facilities or space to frame up 100 prints in a day and with less than 2 days notice, or the space to frame up a 2.5m x 1.2m float mounted print.


That is what you don't appear to appreciate about commercial framers we can be framing up an exhibitions worth of paintings to conservation standard one week and framing up a couple hundred prints for a hotel the next. I doubt very few of us commercial framers would actually fit your stereotype of us.

[Roboframer]

You just assume I couldn't or wouldn't order shiney mount board

Eh?

You mis-read/misunderstood, the customer (oops - this is a commercial job - make that 'client') wanted the sim cards to be shiney - dunno why and they were thinking a piece of glass over them. But I gave them Melinex overlays, which met the brief (is that a commercial term - I like it anyway) with simplicity and also happened to mean that no adhesive was used. The mount board wasn't shiney - just artcare, which IMHO is the best conservation board you can get and which I also use as default, not least of all to keep stock simple.

However I doubt you would have the facilities or space to frame up 100 prints in a day and with less than 2 days notice, or the space to frame up a 2.5m x 1.2m float mounted print.

Oh yes I do; oh yes I have. Over 100 prints and in about 6 different sizes (largest was A1 with a 4" mount border) within that timeframe and none of the mouldings and nothing like enough boards and glass in stock at time of ordering. That was recent, similar has happened before and not far off after.

2.5m 1.2m is about 8x4' for metric martyrs - my workbench is 12x6' - size of a snooker table and my underpinner is sunk in to one corner of it - 8x4 would be a doddle.

I doubt very few of us commercial framers would actually fit your stereotype of us.

I don't think you can post a quote stating what that stereotype is (just wanted to set you off on a forum search there) but you seem to have many opinions on what a non-commercial/bespoke/conservation/whatever...... framer is.

You can frame to conservation standards - or take an age to mount & frame a problematic thing, of course you can - just like I and many other (primarily) custom framers can push 'em out when required - neither of us would want the other's bread and butter though, otherwise we'd have set ourselves up/evolved differently. When I got that job in the link and was told "12 countries" I thought 12 frames and I thought 'what a pain - but I suppose it's a nice earner' - and when I was told "er, no, 12 complete sets per country" - 144 friggin' frames, I was not a happy bunny at all - you'd've been grinning from ear to ear.

We're not very different at all regards most serious custom framers vv commercial framers.

[easypopsgcf]

I'm easily the best at everything, so this thread can now be closed

And yes............you can quote me on that

[mikeysaling]

I'm easily the best at everything, so this thread can now be closed

And yes............you can quote me on that

I'm easily the best at everything, so this thread can now be closed

And yes............you can quote me on that .

[prospero]

How about point guns at 20 paces?


Or a penalty shoot-out

[birdman]

When I saw the title of this thread I was just waiting for Harry Hill to shout "fight".

[mikeysaling]

FIGHT

harry

[Graysalchemy]

This battle seems to have spread over three threads now (probably my doing though roboframer has also played his part)

It has been sugested that we have a drinking competion, but contray to popular belief that I am a p*sshead, i am not. I enjoy a good pint and only a good pint which I savour and relish (as i believe John does), so the idea of drinking a pints of John Sh*te in some drinking game doesn't appeal. Sorry John

With regards to Conservation Police, Roboframer was never the original conservation police it was in fact my antipadean nemisis who is sadly missed by me and I wish he would come back to us. The concept of conservation police was a tounge in check stab at the double standards which appear to be in practice by a number of 'conservation framers'. I first picked up on this with the discussion on the GCF when another member mentioned that he had GCF framed pieces which used masking tape . So after that everytime I mentioned practices I used for low value commercial jobs I got jumped on by certain members. As a result I resorted tounge in cheak to covering my arse with a disclaimer. My personal opinion is that if you wish to uphold the 5 levals of framing then you should practice what you preach. I personaly don't give a monkies how someone frames something it is not my business, however when members of this fraternity do not stick to the rules then I make it my business to bring it to light.

I hope that when you were taking about using an Omer Gun with semi rigid tabs you were talking about low value budget jobs and not conservation framing as it was my understanding ( and hence why I mentioned it) that rigid tabs must be used along with non self adhesive tape to finish the frame. This I know is a minor detail and probably if the Framers standards commitee actually revised this part of the standards they may see fit to state a guage of tab to be used and not a generalised description.

With regards to the tug of war we commercial framers would not have to glue the ancor man the night before as we could use areldite it cures in a hour or so. And no i wouldn't use silicon however it did hold the crow bar very well as demonstrated to Louise Hay the other week. Admitedly it wasn't pretty but it did hold

[fusionframer]

I have been following these threads regarding conservation framing and commercial framers with interest having been a business consultant in my previous life and it seems to raise the issue that framers whose business deals with large volume framing orders cannot produce the same quality of work as a traditional bespoke framer. There also seems to be an implication that because they undertake the work, their knowledge regarding conservation issues or ability to frame to that level is less than a bespoke framer.

This seems a slightly odd assumption to make. The output of a business can vary for a number of reasons. A framer who only produces say 5 frames a week as a bit of a hobby can produce good quality results with a mitre trimmer a decent mount cutter. I personally produce more, but not as many as a dedicated framing shop as I have my antiques business that runs alongside. In order to produce the quality in the time I have, I have a Speedmat wall mounted cutter and a morso with a good underpinner.

I know from previous threads, that Alistair could not run his business without a CMC and double mitre saw with a computerised underpinner. Therefore the volume of frames that each business is able to produce depends on how they are set up. This does not mean that quality is compromised, nor the ability to produce frames that tick all the conservation boxes just because a business produces a large number more than another. It does also not mean that his knowledge is any less than any other framer.

The framing industry is a huge market, and there is a need for all types of framers, some are very specialised, there are those businesses that produce frames for Ikea etc, the important point is that at the end of each week, the way you run your business makes you a profit.

[mikeysaling]

absolutely - well said fusion so chaps and chapesses get out there on stage, and as they say - 'break a leg' sorry fusion could not resist it good points though.

[Graysalchemy]

Thanks for that fusion. At the end of the each and everyone of us is in business to make a profit, and if that is not your intentions then you have an expensive hobby. How we make a profit is up to us.

Yes we do have cross overs and same may think that what I do may tread on their toes and perhaps devalue what they do, but that is not the case. I may not have the knowledge that John has on conservation framing but I can and regularly do frame to those standards. As John has said he has the capacity to frame fairly large volumes, but perhaps he wouldn't want to be doing it everyday.

I just wish people would accept the fact that commercial framers are on the whole accomplished framers.

Cheers

Alistair