Fury

[beth]

Have to express my fury before I smash a frame to pieces. (empty frame, don’t worry there is no customers work involved)

I have just attempted to cut a small frame (25 x 38 cm) from a 3cm wide good quality (ha) moulding. This is from one of the main wholesalers and it is from the expensive range. I have been eager to get my hands on this moulding after receiving the samples (which I had to pay for) it is an elegant black (gorgeous heavy thick textured finish) frame with silver sight edge, it is a beautifully finished. As you can tell I really like this moulding, I even what to reframe so of my own stuff in it.

So to get back to the tale of woe …… I began cutting it up and for such a small frame was hard work, I then attempted to join, and I should have known better it was difficult to cut because it was bowed and twisted but I was stubborn and I paid the price. It would not go together. I have 4 lengths all are sooooo twisted it is unbelievable. I am not a happy person. Monday this company will receive a call, though to be fair if I have any problems they will quickly and efficiently sort them out. I am actually more disappointed than angry (though I am very angry) it really is a gorgeous moulding the whole range is perfect, its expensive but worth the money if the lengths are straight. I could sell this moulding to my customers over and over again, but not sure if I will. And then there is question of the time I have wasted.
Do the wholesalers have a suitable quality control? I think not, I accept mistakes happen, but the shape of these mouldings is ridicules.

My apologies for my second posting as it is a rant and rave about the hazards of the trade.

Feeling slightly calmer will go make a cup of tea, that always helps and return to the mountain of work and try not to kill that moulding,

I didnt name the comapny as I am unsure if thats acceptable

[Roboframer]

I feel your pain - a shedload of moulding arrived last week after a rep's visiit only had time to unwrap them this week - then I needed to cut corner samples - and that's another subject that gets me going...

The first moulding I tried was a good 3" wide and at about £1:80 per foot, not cheap- it semed very light. It was like balsa wood the cut ends were just mush - I tried a bit further down - same again.

I've bundled the lot up and it's going back - I can't be bothered to test the rest of the range - I'm assuming it'll all be the same, if not then I know it'll be a problem in the future. And this is how it is going to be from now on.

As for samples - I don't see why we should have to pay for them, or cut them off our own bought lengths - not if we're doing a fair turnover with the supplier. I've a fair idea who your supplier in this case is Beth and they need to be careful - competition is fierce - I could pick up the phone to one supplier, any time, and they would kit me out with samples of their whole range - FREE and provide spinners.

Read and learn..................

[Lemon_Drop]

I dont see why framers should pay for samples or chevrons either. What we are doing is giving wall space to suppliers so that the public can see whats available and buy those mouldings. I'm sure that some of the mouldings suppliers are reading this and , you know the usual story, the cost to them and their overheads, blah blah, we heard it all before! I just got the new Lion Moulding Catalogue today and just glancing through it I see that theres a charge for chevrons, but when you order moulding from them they allow you credit for the cost of the chevrons, I personally dont have a problem with that at all.My problem is that if a line of moulding costs £1.00 a foot and you need over that to make a sample that the public can see and maybe buy, afterall their not going to see it in some suppliers warehouse, but its costing me money just to show it . And the previous by Roboframer says he can get the fuff range of samples FREE and a spinners to hang them on! If one supplier can do that then they all can. As for the question about wholesalers quality control, its seems like people like use are the quality control department. Sent the rubbish moulding back again, its not suitable for making frames so its not what you ordered.

[Roboframer]

The free sample/spinner supplier I never used much for mouldings but am using more and more at the expense of other suppliers. I also have very little problem, if any with damaged/warped/inconsistent/shoddy/mutton-dressed-as-lamb mouldings from them.

Other suppliers may be very good at swift reparation, but so are they, and prevention is better than cure!

This offer of samples/spinners/POS material I don't suppose is made to just anybody, it's a loss leader or a speculation to accumulation. But what they are saying is that they will support me if I support them and I like that. Other suppliers that I have been supporting for years already, don't make this offer to compete for my business.

I would say that this supplier is my No 3 for mouldings - if and when the day comes when I get around to a much needed clear out of moulding stock and a re-design of the framing sales area, I'll take them up on their offer and they will become numero uno.

Now do you know what I would do if I were a moulding supplier reading this?

Well - I'd think along the lines of - If Washington Green can have partnership galleries and DeMontfort have dedicated galleries - why can't WE have dedicated/partnership/preferred/whatever FRAMERS - the deal could be one up on the above. You gaurantee to buy 80% of your mouldings from us (or 80% or whatever of your display is ours - etc) - we won't just GIVE you samples. spinners, POS stuff and a nice discount etc etc.

We'll come and fit out your design area for you .......

(You read it here first!!)

[realhotglass]

G'day Beth, and welcome to the forum.

Send anything you aren't happy back to any supplier.
It's the only way to improve quality long term.

Also, be prepared to pay a bit more for quality, and always seeking cheaper prices only drives quality down. (That goes for everything.)

I'm not a moulding supplier, but understand that most stuff imported (and isn't that most of it) isn't even unwrapped, and can't be for time / cost reasons.

The factories in China etc need to QC (quality control), and if your suppliers are constantly driving prices down (as a consequence of their clients -framers- requests) then QC is one of the first things to suffer.

Frankenthread alert !!

Re samples . . . gee, has that been done to death, over and over, on every forum !

If a supplier provides 'free' samples, you ARE paying for them one way or another.
In their overhead costs, they would factor it in for sure. Have to.

Everyone then pays for everyone elses samples, whether they have them from that supplier or not.
Pays for them with accessories and other consumables they do buy from that particular supplier.

If samples are paid for (user pays), I believe that a client (framer) will only purchase if they believe they can sell them to their market and clientele.
If offered free most would accept, but to what end ?
A select few might go up; many would just go under a counter somewhere and never see the light of day.

Sure, rebating the sample cost when a clients starts buying from the range, or reaches a certain sales mark, is a very fair option.

Corner samples, well that's another thing altogether.
Framers seem to understand and expect that these are finished frames cut up, being vastly more expensive to produce.
Again though, the rebate idea can work well with these products too.

Look at it this way, if a photographer, interior designer, etc were to come to your and demand free samples of your framing to show clients, what might the outcome be ?

. . . (FIRE AWAY !)

[Roboframer]

I hate it when someone makes a post that I have all the answers to just as I'm going to bed.

Goodnight all!

[markw]

Beth - it happens to us all, and yes its infuriating. I doubt the supplier can tell that they have a dodgy consignment untill its been unwrapped by you. Having said that some suppliers are better than others - I will follow your no names policy and will just say that I refuse to buy any moulding from one supplier knowing that it may start out looking good - but the only thing you can rely upon is the quality dropping - they are cheap - Ime not, so I always buy from quality suppliers.

Robo's comments about supplier loyalty is interesting - and to a point it already happens. The question you have to ask is " do you want to put all your eggs in one basket"?
I do and I feel I get a good deal from my moulding supplier - they dont quite come and design my sales area - but I do get a brilliant service.

I have to say that Nielsen lead the way in proactive customer services - They supply the spinner - loads of literature and very high quality products - I dont use them for mouldings because I have this deal with another - but they never cease to impress - and I use all the other stuff they supply - Artcare boards - Clearcolour glass etc. they get 9/10 - a few chops of large ornate mouldings - one going in today for a large mirror frame- I know that it wont be twisted - the cut will be good - and my customer happy - But I will be paying extra for the quality of service.

[Lemon_Drop]

Look at it this way, if a photographer, interior designer, etc were to come to your and demand free samples of your framing to show clients, what might the outcome be?

It happened 2 weeks ago, when a teacher from a school wanted to get photos with names, dates etc. framed and mounted. She picked the mount and frame, but she needed a price for the whole lot, then she had to go back to the school board in order to get approval to get the framing done. The easiest was for her to show what they were getting for their money was to make up one of the frames so she could show them, and that is want I did.
Last monday, shes back again with an order for 65 more. I dont really mind taking a gamble at those odds. Its easier to sell when the public see what they are getting, plus when the job is done, you dont have some saying " Oh! I though it would look like this or that. As for suppliers and samples. I know that HotPress have been to the South of Ireland at least 4 times this year promoting their vacuum presses and jet mounters and doing demonstrations, talks etc. and I'm certain that if I phoned them up looking for samples of their heat and cold seal films or anything else they might be selling, i know I would have the samples frees of charge in a few days. Its the same way when some other member here, I cant think of his name, but I think he was connected to ColourMount, or something like that. decided to give away free rolls of tapes for us to try and get some reaction be it positive or negative. Its the same way on another post thats ongoing here also. about Glamour II liquid laminator. Not many people on this forum use it, but it may be a great product or maybe its crap, I dont know and I'm not paying out money to find out. But I know that if they picked 6 framers on this forum and gave them a free sample to try out and post on the product, they might sell alot more of the stuff. Afterall its were some of the people that would use it.

[John]

Its easier to sell when the public see what they are getting, plus when the job is done, you dont have some saying " Oh! I though it would look like this or that.

Visualisation is another way of achieving the same result, lets them see what they are getting, and the visualised job, perhaps framed in half a dozen styles, can be emailed to the decision makers for their approval. All in the blink of an eye.

[Lemon_Drop]

I set you up for a nice plug John. Haha, But seriously that Visalisation Software is something I must look at after Christmas.
One the otherhand the wholesalers are driving down the price of mouldings made in China etc. and quality control suffers or is not existant anymore, which allows inferior moulding onto the market. Then why am I paying more for moulding that I was two years ago.

[beth]

I have managed to make the frame but have wasted a lot of moulding. I do allow in my pricing for 20% wastage which is seems a lot but actually works out about right, anything over this percentage of wastage I am on the rocky road to losing money and even worse if I were to give my customers frames of a poor quality frame I guarantee I would lose their custom and all there friends.

I know when I phone up the wholesaler about the moulding they will deal with the problem efficiently and professionally and that’s exactly the type of service we all want. But I still would love to run this range, it’s expensive but the samples look quality, I want to be reassured this is a one off, the quality and reliability will be as it should with my next order. If I order again and the moulding is rubbish, the samples will go in the bin and I have one less reason to order from that wholesaler.

On the subject of paying for samples, I do appreciate that wholesalers also have to run a profitable business to run and giving away too many free samples could potentially be a nightmare, on the other hand they should be able to profile their customer (us) and establish what type of frames/ products we like to sell and use, offer promotions, send out reps to explain new products, if they are confident in a new moulding send out a free sample. Supermarkets are the example, they profile each of us send discount voucher for the types of food we like. They offer promotions on items to get us to try it ‘hey presto it works’, this also builds customer locality providing you can deliver the goods you promise. Same for us if we want customers to use more conservation glass, run a promotion discount for fixed period of time, next time customer returns they ask for the conservation glass and hopefully are prepared to pay the full price.

[John]

I hardly ever ask for one, but most of my suppliers would give me a moulding sample.

Even though no money changes hands, I have never assumed that they are free. Of course suppliers build the cost of these handouts into their pricing. How else would they be paid for?

Moulding samples are like lunches - there's no such thing as a free one.

[foxyframer]

Like John, moulding suppliers are happy to send us samples; always have done. On reflection, those that used to make a charge are no longer around.
As far as quality is concerned, you will always get what you pay for. We do keep half a dozen mouldings for what we call 'entry level' framing, (to be used as last resort,) but the timber quality can be inconsistent. These are generally for those that want just - plain - cheap.
Nothing more annoying than to put a moulding on the Morso to find it rocks on the bed. Used to be a time when every moulding over 50ml would be two or three opposing grains (especially in pine) to counteract
twist and bow. That's not so common anymore; only the best quality are still made this way.

[Roboframer]

Re samples . . . gee, has that been done to death, over and over, on every forum........................................


Look at it this way, if a photographer, interior designer, etc were to come to your and demand free samples of your framing to show clients, what might the outcome be ?

. . . (FIRE AWAY !)

Just in case -

I can get free moulding samples from any of my suppliers - 4" ones, but not corner samples as well.

I wonder if ALL suppliers factor these corner samples into their costs as an overhead, maybe some see them as genuine loss leaders; the way they get their money back from them being in increased sale volume.

That's what I do!

That is in answer to the question above - I provide 3 different photographers with a set of about 30 moulding chevrons - Mostly Larson Juhl or Nielsen exclusive and 50 - 60 mount chevrons, plus fillets (slips)
and a few other upgrades including MUSEUM GLASS - FREE!

I'll also include the odd framed photo on sale or return, yes, with museum glass.

I'm not in to selling things for others to sell on and there is no 'Trade' discount - quantity perhaps.

It works - this brings in business I would not have had otherwise for a very small outlay in relation - even with artcare boards and museum glass.

Now I know a supplier's outlay would be far far greater than my piddling 3 photographers, but so is their turnover and if they spent the same percentage of turnover on free samples that I have, well they'd probably be furnishing 300 selected framers with samples.

I don't think this subject has been done to death at all, and the last time it was brought up here I got a real result, maybe others did too.

Maybe with the threat of switching a main supplier I'll get another one!!

[markw]

I thought this posting was about quality!

Well, as its switched to an old favourite of free samples I might as well add my opinion. All the moulding suppliers provide nice - expensive glossy brochures - free of charge. most will provide samples free of charge. Most will provide volume customers with chevrons free of charge. In fact most of the reps who visit me are keen to supply chevrons FOC even when I say I dont want them so I can only conclude that if your being asked to pay for chevrons then your not buying enough volume to justify the expense incurred by the supplier - Theres one thing for sure, the cost of samples have to be covered by someone. I have a simple attitude to my suppliers - i need them as much as they need me - we both have the need to make a healthy profit. Of course we all try and negotiate the best deal we can, but personaly I dont expect something for nothing and will happily invest when I think that I will make a good return on my money.

Now something that really makes me furios is ordering a specific moulding only to find that its nothing like the sample chevron - new batch at the suppliers and its all different - your not happy - your customers not happy etc - The next is the discontinued moulding - thats one of your most used and nothing comes close - I had a new customer in last week - ordered three frames - all three discontinued - the moulding rep is in early next week to pick over my chevron board - Anyway - a close match hand finished sorted one out - another ordered from a different company and the third had to be re chosen by a not over impressed customer - his jobs late - I look incompetent - and i have spent a precious commodity (time) getting the job done.

[Lemon_Drop]

Yea the subject switched after a few replies, because if you ordered moulding and its so bad that you have trouble making a frame from it, the only answer is to sent it back again. As for the chevrons, the only english company's catalogue I seen was the Lion one, so I can't comment on the other UK suppliers, but I think their pricing of chevrons is fair, well at least you know that theres a charge, and if you order you will recieve credit for paying for them, and I suppose its the same for everyone. I have ordered some stuff from their catalogue before and never had a problem with them, I have not ordered mouldings because the transport costs to the South of Ireland was a bit on the high side, but it seems like thats all changed now. New catalogue, new lines of mouldings, and a transporting price structure aimed at getting framers to buy from them.. Seems like they are looking at the South of Ireland for new market, just might happen that they might find what they are looking for.

[beth]

I phoned up the company about the twisted moulding, they credited me the amount for the damaged mouding and said next time I order the particular moulding to ask to check it is straight.

[Lemon_Drop]

Haha, I dont think theres a big demand for the twisted stuff. It would be easier and cheaper if they checked it themselfs before sending it out. Well If you ask if its not twisted there going to have to check it anyways.

[beth]

Even though my original posting was about the lack of quality of lengths of moulding, the topic of companies charging for samples was brought up. I don’t like paying for samples of moulding when I can only judge their quality from a small picture in a catalogue, (I know I see them once a year at Birmingham). However some companies are great, they send reps out regularly to visit and check I am happy with all my moulding show me new samples, they know there product, say what’s selling at the moment etc.., with type of service I don’t begrudge paying for my samples at all especially when I see the quality of the moulding.

[Lemon_Drop]

I'm glad you got it sorted out Beth. The catalogues like someone said, I think it was Mark, that the moulding suppliers, give us lots of free glossy brochures
printed on top of the range paper and photographed by a top professional photographer, well they really don't look cheap to produce, and probably use half a forest to make the paper, and they bring a new issue out every year, such nice people, those suppliers. But do we really need them at all, it would be alot simpler if they just gave us all the photos on a Cd Rom, and better for the environment also, plus it would be alot cheaper to produce. They are really only used as a reference really, if you or a customer cant find a moulding you have instock then you look at the catalogues, if you see one, you then ask for a sample. I,m not really sure of the visualisation software yet, thats my next project, but I imaging that you need a data base of images, moulding, mount colours etc. maybe those CD's could be used for that also, or else it means taking photos of all your mouldings that you stock. I know a few suppliers give out disks and catalogues, what do you need 2 for. I know Beth that your post is gone all over the place and I'm partly to blame for that, but the only answer was to send it back again, but its a problem that will be ongoing, unless theres a good Quailty Control system in place where the moulding is milled, if not then framers are the Quality Control.