valuable prints

nickhood · Post by **nickhood** » Wed 20 Jun, 2012 7:57 pm

Hi there, I have been asked to frame some very old prints (1911) they are prined on paper and the image is set with a wide border the customer wants a 50mm mount which will leave excess paper extending beyond the new mount. The customer is happy for me to trim this excess but i am concerned it will devalue the prints. The value of the 10 prints is approx £3000. Any help or advice appreciated.
Nick

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 20 Jun, 2012 8:20 pm

Just say no.

Anyone can trim paper, including the customer, s/he must have some scissors somewhere.

Jonny2morsos · Post by **Jonny2morsos** » Wed 20 Jun, 2012 9:11 pm

As above, I wouldn't cut the paper and suggest the customer has a wide border to preserve the value.

IFGL · Post by **IFGL** » Wed 20 Jun, 2012 10:23 pm

I concur . No is the answer

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Wed 20 Jun, 2012 11:18 pm

nickhood wrote: the customer wants a 50mm mount which will leave excess paper extending beyond the new mount.

How much excess paper?

All of my mount corner samples are 4" and I recommend at least 3" (75mm) around pretty much anything, even a postage stamp, to take the frame away from the image - to not interfere with it .... etc.

easypopsgcf · Post by **easypopsgcf** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 12:09 am

If the customer is fully informed and still wants them trimmed, get on with it

Post by **prospero** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 12:26 am

Well it's an ill wind.....

Trimming the prints will increase the value of any other intact examples.

Jonny2morsos · Post by **Jonny2morsos** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 7:45 am

Racing cars hold the road better with no tread on the tyres

Until it rains!!

Graysalchemy · Post by **Graysalchemy** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 8:02 am

I wouldn't trim, as it goes against the grain with me. I would put a larger mount round it 50mm is small for a mount as Robo says art work needs space around it. I also always put a drop on the bottom.

The only time I trim a print is for an art publisher when they come back from the printer with the full width of the paper, then I trim back to the crop marks

nickhood · Post by **nickhood** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 8:24 am

Thanks to you all for you advise, i will persuade the customer to accept a wider mount and retain the value of the art work
Nick

David McCormack · Post by **David McCormack** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 8:30 am

easypopsgcf wrote:If the customer is fully informed and still wants them trimmed, get on with it

I agree.

The advice given about not trimming the prints so they hold their value is sound and correct, but if the customer doesn’t want big borders then, so long as they are fully informed, give them what they want. If these prints belonged to a gallery or art collector they would be telling you not to trim them. But if they are personal family pictures and will never be put on the art market then go with aesthetics rather than investment.

Put your advice in writing and make sure the customer is fully informed and then let them decide. We are not framing police enforcing a law, we are here to give good advice based on sound knowledge. You need to talk to your customer and explain your concerns and listen to want is best for the customer’s needs. If you come to a loggerheads, the customer wants small borders and you don’t want to trim, then you can’t do the job and the customer will probably leave somewhat disgruntled.

Customer says I want to hang these nice pictures on my wall at home then inform the customer verbally and/or in writing and trim the prints.

Customer says I’ve just paid £300 for this print as an investment then don’t trim.

Jonny2morsos · Post by **Jonny2morsos** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 9:03 am

Last week I reframed three prints that a customer had bought in frames at an auction. They were Ltd Eds. from very collectable artists and published by one of the big names in the business.

Two had been framed by an independent gallery and one of these had been stuck down to sticky board and trimmed and the other was taped across the top to the back of the mount with self adhesive tape. The final one which had been framed by one of the publishers "partnership galleries" had been attached to an undermount but again with self adhesive tape all the way across and the undermount looked like the sort of cardboard they make cornflake packets out of.

I reported my findings to the customer.

Post by **prospero** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 4:03 pm

Just wondrin'..... did the customer actually fork out £3k for the prints, or is it some airy-fairy figure he has got by browsing the web?

A guy once rang me about selling his collection of Robert Taylor prints. One he mentioned was valued at the time at £900. I offered him £400 over the phone - subject to inspection. He was round like a shot..... The print was not only trimmed but dry-mounted. Not very well at that. To the collector's market it made the print virtually unsaleable. I didn't buy it.

He had another 40 prints - not quite so desirable as the first but all similarly mutilated. I reckon whoever framed them cost him around £16k.

GeoSpectrum · Post by **GeoSpectrum** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 4:17 pm

I wonder if anyone has ever taken legal action against a framer for damage such as Prospero has described? Be carefull...

nickhood · Post by **nickhood** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 4:50 pm

And so it goes on, i have told customer it is best that that we do not trim the prints down but if he insists i want it in writing.

concerning true value who knows, They were bought at an auction and the prints are of a particular subject the customer is very interested in. Only one is mounted the rest don't look like they have ever seen a frame.An intereting job any way.

framemaker · Post by **framemaker** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 6:28 pm

Regarding trimming down, I always say that it will make them virtually worthless, if the customer is not a collector or really wants an unflattering tiny mount then they usually don't seem bothered with this fact.

J2M mentioned the big LE publishers and I think the whole issue of what will be valuable in the future is interesting.

A trade client of mine mentioned this only the other day that one artist (it could be any one of the mass published) whose originals were sold for several thousand upto 10K and LE prints for hundreds or even over a 1K, they can still be found on gallery sites at around these prices, are coming up for auction at much lower prices.

One example I just checked out is listed on two websites at £399 (reduced from £799!!) recently sold at auction for £37 - and the size given was the original paper size, not cropped, edition of 850
another LE print went for £90 and this was an edition of 150, again original paper size, and can be found online for upto £1295

The originals are fetching prices of around £1200 to £1600 in recent auctions, when galleries are trying to sell comparable works for 4 to 5k

One day these prices may go up, but I think daylight damage is much more important, only the copies kept stored away will command good prices. The sad thing is this example could be any artist, I am sure people genuinely believe what they are buying will increase or at least retain some value but I think for the vast majority this won't be the case.

Jonny2morsos · Post by **Jonny2morsos** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 8:17 pm

One of the things I reported to my customer who brought in the Ltd Eds bought at auction was UV damage which became more noticable when the old mounts were removed.

Had a couple of Ltd Eds in today which were published by De Montfort. Canvasses on board, hand embellished, (printed on thin canvas stuck down to foamex and texturising gel/varnish artistically smeared over the surface). They were bought from www.collectorsprints.co.uk and were high numbers in the edition. Had a look at the website and there is quite a lot in the "sale" section at up to 75% off and if you log in and set up an account there is the promise of better prices!

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Thu 21 Jun, 2012 9:07 pm

We still don't know exactly how much excess paper would be left with the width of mount that the customer wants, is it just a cm or so or something ridiculous?

When prints with wide paper margins come in, the first thing I say is that it will need a mount wider than that margin otherwise it will need to be trimmed and it's best not/I'm not happy .. to do that.

nickhood wrote:Only one is mounted

Was that one trimmed?

Graysalchemy · Post by **Graysalchemy** » Fri 22 Jun, 2012 8:15 am

Jonny2morsos wrote:The final one which had been framed by one of the publishers "partnership galleries" had been attached to an undermount but again with self adhesive tape all the way across and the undermount looked like the sort of cardboard they make cornflake packets out of.

You will find that that would have been mounted by the publisher they don't send anything out unmounted these days. I have seen plenty of examples from the big publishers where there has been over zealous use of Ph7 tape.

The Limited edition market is dead at the moment. The collectability of an artists was created by the publishers when people couldn't afford originals and when the artists couldn't paint enough. Now the collectors want originals (quite rightly so) and these artists are churning them out like sausage meat, as a result the quality is going down and the artists lose their artistic control. They only last a few years then they are on the scrap heap and find it hard to get established again as the market is flooded with their work. I have known artists who have worked for these companies change their name

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