The Framers Forum

Hi guys,

I want your opinion on this one,

If a customer brings in a job, and wants just the frame changed, what do you do?

At present, for the majority of these, we just reuse the old glass, if it is suitable that is. then we charge a straight "Reframing Charge" which covers labour, new fittings etc.

However, we spend so much time cleaning this glass that we may be better off selling the customer new glass. This also ensures the glass will be superbly clean and flaw free.

should we start advising customers that the glass on their dusty old (often faded and acid damaged) picture is inadequate, and the best way to protect it is with new glass- possibly with UV filtering?

Do whatever the customer wants.
Try to upsell to UV or some better glass if you can, but in the end the customer has the final say.

If they only want clear glass and the glass looks as if it will be very hard to clean (especially if it has paint around the edge where someone has painted the frame), I will explain to the customer that it will be cheaper to supply them with a new piece than to spend the time cleaning the old one. They are always happy to go for the cheaper and better looking option.

I charge for the time it takes to get the old frame apart and all the components cleaned up for re use, then charge for the new frame and whatever other components are required and a fitting charge as in a new job.

Where the glass is grubby and contempory we generally recommend replacement, explaining that to clean would be the cost of a new piece. Most are happy with that idea.

Antique glass with all its blips, bubbles and pleasing imperfections, I like to clean, very carefully, as its all part of the original framed object. New glass just dosn't look right. When you point out these imperfections by putting against the light, customers are only too happy to use the old piece. You have to work out your own costing, given the time it will take.

I have a special entry on my POS for dirty customer glass so that I can charge for the reuse of their grime covered glazing.

New glass unless its an antique picture - and I get a few of those - the old rippled glass gets cleaned - and I charge more than new glass to clean it.

Depends on many things but I won't recommend keeping the 'in keeping' green wavy and pitted glass on something obviously valuable, or even 'nice'

Chances are it'll also have a nasty mount - discoloured and not just at the bevels.

A lot of times we get a total re-frame job - not from bullying, just from making sure the customer's choice is informed. Bullying works too though!

If the glass is 'nasty' and we have to re-use it I'll add an extra fitting charge that will nearly always be more than the cost of new (standard) stuff.

Standard glass is 'two-a-penny' but my time is not.

John - My business is based in probably one of the biggest antique dealer clusters in the UK - Tetbury has 80 odd antique dealers (I only trade with the odd ones). They like to have old pictures repaired using old materials. Most good work was framed to a very high standard - if the glass is broken I will replace with old glass if requested. I even have a small stock of 1mm glass.

Like you Mark we use antique glass again where appropriate. On the odd occasion when its not wanted it's put by safely for the future.

Imagine a new piece of 2mm in a grandfather clock face. Had to do a replacement with a 'happen to have' piece of the right stuff.

It would be a shame to bin it, but it has to be cut with great care.

foxyframer wrote:On the odd occasion when its not wanted it's put by safely for the future.

we barely have enough room for 2mm float and 2mm Non reflective.

We are currently investigating the storage logistics for stocking conservation and museum quality glasses, and it looks like we may have to do some serious workshop realignment to get enough space.

i can't imagine what would happen if we stocked old glass for renovation jobs such as that, it just wouldn't be feasable


but what works for one person doesn't always work for another. Sounds like you get some interesting framing jobs there!

We usually charge double the cost of new to clean old glass. This is not as a deterent, but as a realistic reflection of the extra time and trouble involved. Larger pieces of old rippled glass if replaced with new are kept in the back room just in case someone wants some to go into an old frame. Yes, we do get asked for it! Sometimes by normal customers, but also by antique dealers.

These days we don't have many antique shops left, but there's still plenty of dealers left. Most of them don't want to pay much, but there some good regular business to be had, if you make the effort. Most items will be sold on to other dealers elsewhere so you can't charge to much, but the more honest dealers let us know when something is worth the extra.

You SHOULD be able to source sheet drawn glass in the UK.

I supply it here in Oz, mostly to repro furniture makers (that don't want float glass in their bookcases etc) and also to antiquarian framers and others that have a replacement to do, or framing antique prints, maps etc.

I source from (a very limited number of suppliers in) China in 2mm and 3mm.
Chinese sheet has a 'grain' and if cut the right way looks pretty authentic.
Most now are of course putting in float lehrs, so will only be a matter of time before sheet is no more.

The last Pilkington batches of sheet drawn (still around in the early 90's) were so good that it was hard to distunguish from float.

We also make our own sheet 'hand made' glass by placing float on hammered moulds and giving it a good firing.
Can't get seeds or other such genuine sheet features in there, but looks great.
Can get a much more distinctive effect too.

we usually put new glass in if its standard float. Its usually cheaper (in labour time) than trying to clean it.

Some old pictures have that lovel "wobbly" old glass, so I always try and keep that. Something in the back of my mind says if its been there that long, and its part of the original piece, change as little as possible!

Its just a personal thing, but I think old houses look nicer with the old glass too, nothing stands out more than a new pane of pilkingtons finest float in a window when all the other windows still have victorian glass in them. Its something thats overlooked in local planning conservation area rules.

Graham

Don't get enough antique glass put by to cause a storage problems, can't bin it.

A well organised and tidy use of stock space should be high on the list in a framers' workshop. Surprising how much spare room can be found with a good clear out now and again.

Basically two sorts of workshop: mucky pup and neat as a new pin.

i think we fall into the "mucky pup" category.

Space is at a premium in our workshop, so much so there is no space for a second Estlite terminal. every available space is used for storing things.

even behind the Keencut System 4000 is used for storing perspex. under the HotPress is a similar story,

we have 400 odd Mouldings and 200 odd mountboards, backing boards, Glass, a work bench, Morso, an underpinner, a bambi compressor, a system 4000, a keencut ultimat, a Hot Press, stored in a space 3 X7 metres

space is a premium!

we pass on all the old frames etc, to an Art charity who sell it on. they teach people with learning disabilities about business management.

There is another category of workshop..... organised chaos, that's me!

My workshop is about 30 x 20 feet, with an island workbench the dimensions of a snooker table (12 x 6') Underpinner sunk into one corner - mountcutter sunk in to the opposite end, 3 plan chests underneath, plus compressor, plus other things, suspended above it are reels of wire, pneumatic point driver ..... other stuff.

If the bench is clear and organised; if everything above and under is also - I'm happy.

Around it?

Don't even go there!

But glass is stored on 3 carpetted 'stages' - regular near the delivery roller shutter, standing 'landscape'. Speciality standing 'portrait' - in boxes, on two other carpetted 'stages' with their offcuts.

Offcuts of regular (anything below about A3) gets stuffed behind the excalibur.

Don't keep 'old' glass but I can relate to Mark(W) - even if I only (regularly) deal with one antique dealer - if a 'normal' customer asked me to treat certain things in the way that he insists, I'd probably go berzerk!

kev@frames wrote:Some old pictures have that lovel "wobbly" old glass, so I always try and keep that. Something in the back of my mind says if its been there that long, and its part of the original piece, change as little as possible!

Its just a personal thing, but I think old houses look nicer with the old glass too, nothing stands out more than a new pane of pilkingtons finest float in a window when all the other windows still have victorian glass in them. Its something thats overlooked in local planning conservation area rules.

Great perception of it Kev, how I feel in most cases.

Keeping the original glass in re-silvering jobs for example.
Even though when re-silvered all the little nicks and scratches show up a little more, keeping that same glass with that original finish just seems right.

Persoanlly, I feel a little mirror 'spoilage' looks right in most antique (& repro) furniture, can't understand why some people want to make the mirror glass look new again.
Heck, we even deliberately reproduce antiqued 'aged / spoiled' silvering for many of our mirror products !

We ship a lot of the sheet drawn to various locations here for window etc reglazing.
Seems no other glass suppliers in the various locations thinks it important.

Somehow, this thread by a most thoughtful framer in the US sums it up pretty well . . .
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.ph ... post255248

I can honestly say that I hate cleaning used glass - and I use the word "used" carefully as I don't mean old glass. By old I also don't mean rolled or greenhouse glass - what i mean by old is antique picture frame glass.

like the stuff we use today framers seem to have used high quality thin glass. It has bubbles and streaks and is always very uneven but it was the best they could get. Put anything else back into an old frame that originally had old glass and it just doesn't look right.

Kev - My home is a grade 2 listed property in a conservation area - all glazing has to be rippled glass. My shop - Grade 2 listed - all windows are old glass. No double glazing allowed - if you have draughty old windows thats the way they are and the listings people come down hard if you try and change them.

MarkW- thats really interesting. We are just a regular "conservation area", (and so is the shop, now i come to think about it, but not listed -we had a window replaced last year) I presume the glass specification is not as rigid as for a listed, or maybe it varies by region?
Im all for keeping the glass with character in houses, and prefer to do the same in an old picture whenever possible.
Ive fount that it often does not cut too well, so we seldom stash any away for future repairs. Im not too clued up on the physics of glass, but I heard a rumour that it gets more fragile with age (?)

Antique glass Kev may be diificult to cut due to its fluid state. The glass in a vertical position will after a very long time thin out at the top and thicken towards its base, whether in a picture frame or a pane in a window.

If you laid, say a metal object on a sheet, it would given time drop through.

Strange, but true.