Guillotine v mitre saw

[John Andreae]

Hello!

I've been an amateur framer for a few years but am intending doing some professional work. I need more sophisticated and accurate equipment and am assuming I will need a mitre guillotine rather than the hand saw I've been using. However I did wonder whether an electric mitre saw would give accurate enough cuts? These can be cheaper than good guillotines but possibly impracticable due to dust levels?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks very much

John

[Roboframer]

Welcome to the Forum, John.

Mitre saws are accurate enough and a single one may well be cheaper than a Morso, but you'd need a double one to cut like a Morso cuts and then you're talking a lot of money, - e.g. http://www.lionpic.co.uk/catalog/Double ... rt=1&dir=0 - plus you may have to finish off with a mitre sander.

I'd only consider one if I was in to large volumes and/or cutting metal frames.

[Gesso&Bole]

Hi John. Welcome to the forum

Go for a Morso. No dust and much more accurate, unless you are going into mass production and are thinking of a double mitre saw.

[Graysalchemy]

For you average bespoke framer the good old morso is the man for the job. If you start doing volume or cutting bigger mouldings then A twin bladed cassese is the man, but you are probably lokking at £3-5K for a second hand machine and the majority are 3 phase. With regards to a single DIY electric mitre saw, you will strugle to get accurate lengths cut as if you do find one with a measuring arm It won't measure moulding width. Also the constant switching the saw between left and right cuts is not only annoying but wears the the pivot out and you eventually get play and in it and thus you no longer get a 45 degree angle. The workshop next to me manufactures fire doors and they use one but regularly seem to buy a new one because the cut is not accurate.

So my advise is a morso.

AG

[prospero]

Welcome John.

I'll second all the previous comments.

The mitre saws on sale at you local DIY shed are fine for general woodwork, although some are better than others. Like everything else, you get what you pay for. The ones made for cutting picture frames are a different animal and are much more expensive. The difference is the build quality and engineering tolerances and the quality of the blades is all important.

Saws really come into their own if you cut a lot of wide sections or ones that have an undercut which can be a problem on a guillotine. But they are noisy and dusty. The big kit such as AG mentioned is also extremely heavy and you need a forklift to move them.
For the majority of general framing, the tried and tested Morso is unbeaten. It will pay for itself in a short space of time and hold it's value. I have had mine for 25+years and it shows no sign of wear.

[vitalframer]

I use a De Walt Mitre Saw on its own stand onto which I have added my own measurement jig. This allows me to cut accurately to length and use a production stop to cut the two longer lengths of moulding to size and then reset for the shorter lengths. I cut all lengths 5mm over and then finish the cuts on a hand guillotine which also has production stops on it. Unfortunately the De Walt does not cut exact 45 degree mitres so I have to use the giullotine to get the tight mitres.

I am getting very good results using this method. I agree with others that a Morso would be the better option but I don't have the volume (yet) or the cash available for that machine. I can dream though.

[Graysalchemy]

Unfortunately the De Walt does not cut exact 45 degree mitres so I have to use the giullotine to get the tight mitres.

That seems like a lot of double handling to me. I use a cassese saw because of volume however I used to be able to cut 30 -40 frames an hour the cassese does about 50-60. However the cassese gives a far superior cut than any morso. However a double bladed saw are serious big boys toys and are totally inappropriate for most framing workshops, they are big, heavy, 3 phase, hungry on air (a bambi twin pot won't run one) noisy and dusty (even with fine dust extraction) and expensive. And you still need a morso to cut mount fillets.

I would never get rid of my morso, even though I would never use it to cut a frame only mount fillets.

Cheers

AG

[framemaker]

Hi John, welcome to the forum,

I would definitely go for a Morso, you simply would not regret it, whereas you may regret buying an electric mitre saw, and wish you had gone for a Morso in the first place.

[Nigel Nobody]

A Morso would probably be the best choice, but with the proliferation of brittle compo mouldings these days, double mitre saws are going to become more necessary. Many manufacturers don't give a rats whether their mouldings will cut well on a Morso, they just want to get the money and ship the product.

The only other answer for Morso owners will be to cut each piece of moulding 6 to eight mm longer and use a mitre sander to trim to size. That will take much more time.

[Gesso&Bole]

I do, and I don't agree Ormond.

Today.
I think there are mouldings suitable for contract only that need a double mitre saw, and there are mouldings suitable for custom framers that will cut well on a Morso. The problem is that the wholesaler, or rep is often not well enough informed. A good rep will make sure the right product goes to the customers with the right kit to work it.

In the Future.
With the improvements in technology, more and more of the volume will go towards the contract market, and the custom market will contract, so some moulding manufacturers will obviously concentrate on the volume end of the market, whilst others will provide a premium product for the custom end of the market. So I don't think that custom framers will all rush out and buy a Cassese double mitre saws (price/space/dust), but I do think that custom framers will end up paying more and more for moulding that will cut on a Morso.

[TONY.W]

Have a look in
the Lion Cat' at the Inmes Single blade saw with built in Dust extractor and air clamps.
It's quicker than a Morso and less energy used.
But remember no matter what saw you buy never get rid of the Morso.
There are certain mouldings that the Morso will give a far superior cut on.
Tony

[goodnightbanjo]

Hello John

If you are making wooden frames then the Morso I would choose. Cuts like glass and its vernier measuring arm takes away a great deal of pain also. They hold their price so buying a second-hand one would not leave you out of pocket if you decided to sell on. There are things to beware of though when buying these used (though there are many posts already on this subject if you search the forum).

Peace and Respect
backathomebanjo

[John Andreae]

thanks guys for all the replies to this query. Amazingly you all seem to agree! I keep bees and when you put in a query you get as many different solutions as the number of replies!!

thanks again

JOhn

[Graysalchemy]

There are certain mouldings that the Morso will give a far superior cut on.
Tony

I disagree with that Tony. Speaking with experience as someone who used a morso day in day out for 10 years and a cassese for 5 years, I would say that with regards to cut the cassese is a winner every time. As I have said before the reason I bought a casesse is that it gave a far superior cut especially with the increasing number of cheap over compo mouldings which have flooded the market and also hardwood's. The only time it won't is when cutting mount slips and fillets as it can't cut anything that small. I would be interested to see what moulding all saws cut inferiorly to a morso.

I would say that for 90% of framers in the UK a cassese twin bladed saw or for that matter an Alfamachine would be totally in appropriate because of the reasons I have previously mentioned, and that a morso is far better than any singled headed saw because of inaccuracy of cut due to moving of the blade, as discussed.

I feel that as a representative of a major UK wholesaler that you should of perhaps have been more cautious in your advise and given a less biased opinion, surely this is not a place for wholesalers to promote their own wares in such a way . This is after all a public forum where people look for un biased advise from fellow framers based on their own personal experiences. If a user of your machines were to give an endorsment then I would have no problem with that.

Thanks

AG

[TONY.W]

AG,
Sorry if it looked like I was promoting our service.I wasn't .As the person stated he was an just starting out.So I take it he wouldn't want to spend 4-5000 pounds on a CS 969 or 999 or 3-4000 on a new Brevetti.
I have used the 969 and it is one of the best on the market.
What I was trying to say that the Imnes for the price is an excellent saw that will cut very very accurately and for the price it contains everything for the smaller framer.I have had experience in framing 20 years.
I certainly wouldn't try and sell something just for the sake of selling it.
Tony

[misterdiy]

I am going to spring to the defence of Tony W because I have both. The Inmes is a very accurate tool and as AG says the mitre saw gives a much better finish on the majority of mouldings that have compo on. My morso is almost new and is an excellent tool but as always it does have limitations which are on mouldings with decoration. The inmes is very accurate and so is the morso, but if you are choosing just one machine then the morso will cut quicker and as good as a mitre saw for the majority of cases.

I would consider upgrading to a twin bladed mitre saw if volume was an issue, but currently we can cope with a single bladed machine and get very good results.

Steve

[TONY.W]

Thanks for that Steve.
Tony

[Nigel Nobody]

I agree with Tony. In my experience using both a chopper and a double mitre saw, there are certain mouldings that cut better with a chopper. For those, I cut them 2mm oversize with the double mitre saw and skim 1mm off both ends with the chopper!

To say that "cassese is a winner every time" is a very bold statement which I disagree with.

[Graysalchemy]

I agree with you Tony as I said a cassese 969 or 939 is totally inappropriate for the majority of framers and yes you would be wrong to sell one of those. Perhaps there is a market for a machine purposely designed for the framing industry, and your Imnes machine fits the bill. Sorry I shouldn't have got on my high horse, but I hope you can understand where I was coming from.

I still maintain that a double bladed saw will always give a better and more accurate cut than a morso. One of the reasons I gave up using a morso was the fact I wasn't getting a good enough cut on the majority of mouldings I was using. My volume is not huge I may cut 50 frames of the same size or a batch of 20-30 frames of varying sizes. I also cut a wide range of quality mouldings from plastics up to the most expensive water guilded mouldings. My cutting time is probably 50% faster, but I know I won't have issues when I come to joint.

Under pinning is the flip side to the perfect joint and again a good underpinner preferably a pneumatic machine makes all the difference again I have a cassese 3099. The final element to the perfect cut is the moulding itself. If the profile is twisted at all, which I feel is becoming more of a problem since more pines are being used, then again you run the risk of a dodgy joint or at best a twisted frame.

Nigel I still stand by my statement that a cassese is a winner every time. That statement is my personal opinion which I have gained from use of them and the opinion of other framers I know and in no way a sales pitch for cassese.

[Nigel Nobody]

Nigel I still stand by my statement that a cassese is a winner every time. That statement is my personal opinion which I have gained from use of them and the opinion of other framers I know and in no way a sales pitch for cassese.

There are a number of painted or foiled mouldings available down here, which when cut on a double mitre saw, even with new or just sharpened blades, that the top surfaces of the joints do not fit as perfectly tight together as when they are trimmed on a sharp chopper. Chopper gives a joint that looks like the two parts have grown together and sawn joints don't. The joints are acceptable, but for someone who is particularly fussy, there is a perceptible difference, even with the naked eye.

Drop in some time and I will show you the difference.