Products to stain barefaced oak

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NikiH
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Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by NikiH » Tue 17 May, 2022 2:56 pm

Can anyone please advise what I can use to get barefaced oak moulding to look like the pic attached?
Thank you!
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Tue 17 May, 2022 4:29 pm

A lot of the time, I mix my own stain and test the coulour on the actuall wood which I want to stain. If you are thinking that the colour of the woodstain is always going to look the same on different base colours of the wood, well sorry sometimes you are lucky sometimes not. I buy two, three hundred feet of Oak at a time a there's plenty of colour and grain variations.

I like to mix and match my pieces of Oak to get a reasonably close looking match of pieces of Oak in one frame. I regularly produce Oak frames for one particular trade customer. Sorry to disappoint you, but almost all of my Oak frames are non stained at all. There is an advantage to this as any unsightly blotches which only show up after staining, don't happen on frames which I have not decided to stain at all.
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Gesso&Bole » Tue 17 May, 2022 5:30 pm

As Mark says, it depends on what colour your particular bit of wood is to start with.

But the easiest way is just to use wax. I use Liberon Black Bison wax - available from most of the framing suppliers, or online.

To achieve those 2 colours in the picture you would need some clear or neutral for the light coloured one, and Jacobean or Tudor Oak for the darker one.

Once the frame is made, give it a light sand over (240 grit). You can then just wipe the wax on with a cloth, but you will get a better finish using 000 or 0000 wire wool to put the first coat on. Once that has had 30 to 60 minutes to soak in, you could just polish it, but probably it will need another coat (or 2) to get to the colour you want. Then buff it up with a cloth.
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by fusionframer » Tue 17 May, 2022 5:36 pm

Top one, i would use van dyke crystals to make my own stain. A few quid and then crystals and boiling water to mix. Just play around with quantity of crystals to water. Then brush on and use liberon black bison neutral (not clear) wax.

https://www.building-supplies-online.co ... isQAvD_BwE

They will make a decent number of stains which keep well.

Bottom one, just liberon neutral wax should do it. Alternatively, liberon beeswax with turpentine or even danish oil will get you sorted.

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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Tue 17 May, 2022 6:00 pm

I also use Van Dyke cyrstals, but it is quite easy to fine tune the resulting water based stain with a little bit of either powder pigments, or acrylic paints. It produces very cost effective wood stains, with the minimum of complication, or too much fussing about. Works for me! I stain a lot of pine. Pine works well for me, but I mostly don't like pine with knots showing. I really don't want my pine to look cheap, so it needs to look like something which does not look like pine at all.

Part of the process usually starts with staining the pine to look like something else, together with subtile washed effects to soften the visual impact of the typical pine wood grain. Pine is cheap, but the furniture industry has been finding ways to make pine look like a more expensive wood for centuries and more than a few framers have been learning from what the furniture industry has known all along. I buy lots of pines mouldings, I doesn't need to look like pline. It just take some stains and a bit of practice. I stain a lot more pine than anything else!
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 18 May, 2022 8:20 am

If you are looking for an official way that everyone stains wood, using the one authentic stain product, I don't think that you will find that there is one. Not everyone is wanting the same finish and the same look, but there's lots of framers producing stained Oak frames on this forum, who have sucessfully been doing plenty of it for many years, with ongoing success. There was at one time a when quite a lot was being said about something called Osmo polyox liquid wax. I have never used this product myself, but there was quite a buzz about it and one time on this forum, so I guess it must be good!

search.php?keywords=osmo
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by NikiH » Wed 18 May, 2022 8:48 am

Thank you so much everyone!

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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Justintime » Wed 18 May, 2022 4:32 pm

I started with spirit stains by Chestnut Products, they have a wide range of colours/tones.
Thanks to advice from Vintageframes, I moved on to using Van Dyke crystals, adding acrylic colours like raw umber/burnt umber to give a richer/warmer tone. I haven't looked back and rarely use the spirit stains now.

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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Wed 18 May, 2022 6:04 pm

I rarely use spirit based stains anymore. I like a bit more time to be able to work the finish. Water based stains are usually where it's at for me. There are ocassions where I will use a water based stain and after it has dried, I'll maybe do something interesting with a water based wash stippled into some paste wax. This does not reactivate the underlying stain, or affect the underlying stain if you change your mind and what to remove it without needing to go all the way back and start again.

Learn about the differences between washes and glazes, the effects you acheive with them are quite different and you can generally do more than you may have at first realised after you have learnt about washing and glazing tricks and techniques. Read about traditional work finishing techniques and effects, it's very educational.
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Thu 19 May, 2022 9:50 am

A big advantage of producing your own wood stains and using nice thick wet pigmented acrylic paints as part of that mix is that the solvent used in Black Bison paste waxes is an active solvent which directly opens up the already set acrylic resin in the acrylic paints and when the wax is set and made to flow and self level with a hot air heat gun, because the same solvent which softens and partially liquifies the wax causes the interface between the arylic resin and the wax to reset as one. Experience has shown me that this can be a very strong and solid bond. Using Acrylic paints and water as part of your woodstain mix, does not mean that you cannot also use Van Dyke cyrstals, In fact, Van dyke cyrstals are a great way to start making the base for your wood stains. Van Dyke cyrstal need to be disolved in boiling water to release the coloured pigment, in fact nothing at all will happen with water that is too cold. Van Dyke crystals are very versatile and accord to the contentration used can form the basis of quite weak colured woodstained, or event very strongly coloured ones.

There are significant cost advantages for me to use certain pine mouldings on a regular basis and also some really useful moulding profiles which are useful for building up into stacked moulding combinations are mainly available only as pine mouldings. Besides using these pine mouldings for stacked mouldings, I also use these for a variety of use. Pine mouldings can look a bit uninspiring when stained, but the furniture industry has traditional used plenty of stained pine mouldings in such a way as to create a much better quality look. I therefore have borrowed a few trick and trade secret from the furniture industries traditional ways of doing things. Preconditioning the bare pine with a thin pale wash is a good way to seal the pores in the wood to reduce stain absorption in already darker areas in the existing wood grain and also tp lighten and soften the appearance of the woodgrain, so that it more closely resembles a much nicer quality of wood. Adding another subtile wash effect after any staing has been completed can fine tune the visual appeal as well. I quite often mix my final wash into some Black Bison paste wax and this enables me to add the stage in a very easily controlled way.

When I like the final result, I set the wash mix with wax using a hot air heat gun. If I want an extra durable matt effect, I add a coat of Poyvine acrylic deat flat (matt) wax finish varnish and set it by heating with the hot air heat gun and this also remelts the wax underneath creating a strong bond between the waxand the matt varnish. As any knots in the pine would spoil the effect, I mainly use mouldings containing relatively few knots and don't use the bits that cotain the ocassional knot at all. I don't discard bits of these mouldngs, because the contain knots of even minor dings, but use these to produce small rustic style frames, which are usually popular around here for custmers living in old cottages, barn conversions and the like. Using wood stains does have to be just a basic way of re-colouring the wood, but can be part of an all together more interesting looking process if that is desired. I still operate in a much quieter town, business wise than as the town once used to be and I aim at specific markets which still seen to work best to tis local area.
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Justintime » Thu 19 May, 2022 11:19 am

In relation to your use of polyvine dead flat matt Varnish. You say you apply a wax coat on top of the acrylic stain mix and then when required, a final coat of the Polyvine.
In the Polyvine data sheet under Surface Preparation it says :"Ensure the surface to be coated is clean and free from grease, wax or polish".
Can you explain your reasoning behind how your process works, against the data sheet advice?

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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Thu 19 May, 2022 12:58 pm

I've never read the data sheet, but I've been doing this for years. Wax is historically one of the oldest adhesives known to man. Heated wax seems to bond to almost anything and really sticks well. I even stipple acrylic paint washes into brushed on layer of wax wax applied straigt from the tin. This isn't anything new. Things like wax, egg, and gone off milk have been used as binding agents in paint since the days of renaissance Venice. I don't suppose that whoever wrote the data sheet has ever tried anything like thing, but at least I have tried this! I do lots of this along the same lines, if they did not work, there would not be a lot of point in doing them. I even mix acrylic paint with paste wax to fill nail holes and gaps in the corner joints on old frames which need repairing.

Did you ever go the the spring fair and watch Pete Bingham, doing his handfinishing demonstations for his Everest paints on the Lion picture framing stand? Almost all of his finishes, were one's baded on mixing acrylic paints and Black Bison paste wax. I originally learned a lot of what I do from five days solid hand finishing training with Pete Bingham. I also have a lot of books about paint effects and re-painting old furniture and they all use techniques, where acrylic paint and paste wax are used together. It's all very traditional ways of doing handfinished paint effects. These technique work well with egg tempre paints, chalky emulsion paints and even with Craig and rose, or Farrow and Ball paints. I being doing this stuff for a really long time, if it was not going to work, don't think that I would have found out by now?
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Gesso&Bole » Thu 19 May, 2022 4:46 pm

Maybe it is reliant on the heating stage. But I have definitely found that Polyvine dead flat varnish peels off within a few weeks when applied over wax. I have not heated it up when applying it though.

Agree on painting on top of wax etc as per Pete Bingham.
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Justintime » Thu 19 May, 2022 11:56 pm

That is my main concern. That what looks amazing when it leaves, actually has to be as good as what's in the package i.e the frame finish has to be as good. I'm not convinced....

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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Fri 20 May, 2022 10:46 am

Both the wax and the varnish become quite hard and durable when they have been set by heating. The dead flat (matt) acrlic varnish contains coloidial silica to create the matt finish and the tiny particules of silica are the same level of hardness as the hardness of grains of sand. Sand is silica in it natural and un-purified form. There is a crazy amount of coloidial silica in a dead flat (matt) as It's extremely resistant to all effectsof abrasion. That's one of the reason why I the the Polyvine acrylic dead flat varnish so much.

I also don't like the plastic look that you get with the gloss and satin acrylic varnishes. I much prefer producing a soft gloss by using the dead flat varnish, followed by waxing and buffing using Black Bison neutral paste wax. The really authentic traditional look is always what I am looking for, customer who are really wanting something which a classy looking traditional look and finish literally spot this straight away. I often use the polyvine acrylic dead flat varvish over my bronzing powder gold finishes followed as before with paste wax and a polish, The result just looks more natural!

Incidentally the binder in my bronzing powder gold finishes is Black Bison paste wax. I vary the colour of the wax and the colour of the bronzing powders according to the finish which is needed. I prevent the bronzing powders from ever oxidising by uses sodium silicate, which is one of a group of chemical compounds known as a waterglass. Water glasses when mixed with water and allowed to dry form and glass tight crystalite clear coating on any thing containing a metal. The wax binder prevent the silicon silicate from being disolved again, if in contact with water.

This very old traditional know how! Very few people know about stuff like this at all in these more modern times!
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by vintage frames » Fri 20 May, 2022 11:44 am

As Mark says, you can mix wax into nearly all paints and finishes.
Wax is often added to artists varnishes in order to create a soft matt effect and when mixed into acrylics, can produce all sorts of painting effects.

Painting a varnish over wax can be done but as Justintime suggests, can create a very vulnerable finish. There's no guarantee that it won't fall off after a few weeks!

What's all the enthusiasm about Polyvine varnish anyway. Why do framers use this stuff?

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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Fri 20 May, 2022 1:00 pm

Sorry dermot,

But The wax finish dead flat acrlic varnish is as tough as old boots and sticks like crazy. I been using it for years, it not only just does not come off, but you will be spending a very long time trying to remove it if you need to. It's seriously good stuff!
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by vintage frames » Fri 20 May, 2022 2:31 pm

I can see why you want to use it.
I don't see why you should use it.

Another modern product that allows the user to think they can leap-frog over the finishing skills that craftsmen require to produce the most beautiful of finishes.

People can use it and be delighted with the results but they need to be careful not to be blind to the fact that what they're producing is visually dull and inferior.

To me - It's a shame why so many are attracted to these skill cul de sacs.

Why not use that hand finishing enthusiasm to find out about the right and proven way to do things?
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by Not your average framer » Fri 20 May, 2022 3:56 pm

Hi Dermot,

It's a difficult business environment in my town and I'm trying very hard do things as it is. I'm trying to get the right combination of volume and income. Lots of the shops in this town are barely making it and I have lost contact with so many of my previous customers during the four years since I moved from my previous premises and my wife and I had our strokes. Sorry to disappoint you, but I feel much safer doing what I was already doing before, for one thing there is not much of a learning curve doing what I was already doing.

It also remains to be seen, what sort of business levels I am likely to be able to still get in what is now not such a busy town, these days. I dosee you point, but I don't think that I have the market to support what you are suggesting. Anyway thanks for the suggestion, it's much appreciated.
Mark.
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Re: Products to stain barefaced oak

Post by vintage frames » Fri 20 May, 2022 6:23 pm

I'm still going to disagree with you Mark.
You're never too old to learn new skills. It's what keeps our brains feeling fresh and young.
I know you're doing the best with some physical difficulties and I imagine volume isn't really where you'd want to be looking, so i don't see why you can't take time to make some high value items for shop display.
What does it matter if it takes ages to get them right?
You're one of the most experienced framers on this forum and with enough talent to easily master new techniques if required.
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