Quoted from another subject on this forum.
"Oh, and the little flies would not see the warning sign on the back of the frame. They always enter though the front. (Not a lot of people know that.)"
I for one had always assumed otherwise (Not that I had given the above possiblity any serious thought until now). Also this is not a subject which I have noticed receiving much attention before. Perhaps it's time has come!
Is anyone aware of any confirmation if this is true, or are these eggs laid by flies which were already inside the package when the frame was sealed?
How many framers tape the whole sandwich of glass, mount and back together to aviod this?
To date I don't normally seal the sandwich like this, although I do sometimes tape the inside of rebates on some mouldings able to shed gold foil particles, which then appear behind the glass after you've finished sealing the back.
If I knew for sure that there is a need to do something about this then I would.
Little dead flies inside the frame
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Not your average framer
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I think this depends on where you live. If you live in an area with cornfields nearby you tend to get a plague at harvest time. Why they feel the need to creep into pictures is one of the great mysteries of nature. They only die when they get in and leave a permanent stain around the 'corpse'. It's strange, but if the picture is a landscape they will invariably die on the 'sky' where the stain is most visible and never in the grass. This type of stain is virtually impossible to remove, so That's why I like to keep the little pests out. That's why I apopted the (arguably dubious) practice of wrapping the backboard/mount/glass with masking tape. They definately do go in the front. I have caught them in the very act. The fact that masking tape is horrible stuff and goes very gooy is an advantage here. When the fly wriggles his way under the rebate he is faced with two choices: Go under the tape and get stuck, or go over and around the back. Another advantage of the sandwich method is it makes assembly easier. I place the backing board on a bench, place the mounted artwork on top (face up). Check for marks/ bits of fluff, etc. I then clean the glass both sides at another bench and place on the mounted art. This way you can spot any bits under the glass or marks on the glass itself. If all OK then run tape around the edge of the glass and fold under. Run a scapel around the edge about 1/8" away and peel of excess. You now have an easily handled package that will drop straight in the frame and you know that no stray particles will not get sucked in. Anyone who assembles by putting the glass in the frame, cleaning it and then loading the art/back face down is frankly, making work for themselves.
I often get customers coming in with pictures full of flies. After I have cleaned cleared the flies out and resealed the frame I always say: If any more flies get in this frame I will clean them out free of charge. That also applies to any frames I have done. In 25 years I have never had anyone take me up on this offer.
I rest my case.
I often get customers coming in with pictures full of flies. After I have cleaned cleared the flies out and resealed the frame I always say: If any more flies get in this frame I will clean them out free of charge. That also applies to any frames I have done. In 25 years I have never had anyone take me up on this offer.
I rest my case.
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Roboframer
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markw
The little flies are called Thrips - or thunder bugs. They weren't a problem here in the Cotswold's until they started growing Oilseed Rape - now they can be a real pain. They will get into the frame any way they can - why they want to is a mystery to me - perhaps they just want to immortalise themselves behind glass.
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Not your average framer
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Perhaps I am missing something here, but there should not be enough clearance between the front surface of the glass and the lip of the frame to permit these flies to get in from the front.
Are these flies incredibly small before they get inside and then grow to full size inside. If so where is their food supply? I've only seen this problem on a few very old frames, but there was no signs of anything being eaten inside. Also there is no water supply inside a frame to sustain life.
Perhaps they like eating the sticky stuff on the masking tape after it has all gone dry!
Are these flies incredibly small before they get inside and then grow to full size inside. If so where is their food supply? I've only seen this problem on a few very old frames, but there was no signs of anything being eaten inside. Also there is no water supply inside a frame to sustain life.
Perhaps they like eating the sticky stuff on the masking tape after it has all gone dry!
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Roboframer
I think we could be on to something here Mark - I may be wrong but I'm sure all the fly removal jobs I have seen - including many that have not moved from where they were hung in houses within 5 miles of me for years, had one main thing in common - low quality self adhesive tape to seal the back - and as for masking tape, there is simply no such thing as 'high quality' not when it comes to framing.Not your average framer wrote:
Perhaps they like eating the sticky stuff on the masking tape after it has all gone dry!
I may be wrong about the tape on all of these jobs, but I am sure of one thing - they've all been non-preservation jobs - either through ignorance or carelessness - no undermount - MDF - masking tape to secure artwork - double mounts stuck together with animal skin/bone glue.
I hope I don't put stuff in the frame that insects want to eat and I think they do like masking tape and other stuff that in this day and age, shouldn't be there.
Yes, the flies can get in from the front, they are miniscule, but what's the attraction?
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Not your average framer
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Hi John,
I've been looking around on the web and for a guy who until today didn't even know what thunder-flies are, I'm getting clued-up fast.
They are only a problem during the matting season (mid-summer) and this is due to behavioural traits during this time. They get inside all sorts of small spaces including, TFT flat screen monitors, watches, picture frames and fire alarm sensors.
A particularly recent problem is the wide-scale planting of Oil Seed Rape, which is supposed to be poisonous to insects, unfortunately not so with the thunder-flies. If a Thunder-fly after living on Oil Seed Rape dies inside a picture frame then the oil escapes from the dead body and causes a difficult or sometimes impossible to remove stain.
So getting back to prevention, I would suspect that any tape which does not permanently seal to the glass, (Masking tape is suspect in this regard), cannot be considered a fully credible solution. For a credible solution we need to check out our tape specifications first to be sure.
I've been looking around on the web and for a guy who until today didn't even know what thunder-flies are, I'm getting clued-up fast.
They are only a problem during the matting season (mid-summer) and this is due to behavioural traits during this time. They get inside all sorts of small spaces including, TFT flat screen monitors, watches, picture frames and fire alarm sensors.
A particularly recent problem is the wide-scale planting of Oil Seed Rape, which is supposed to be poisonous to insects, unfortunately not so with the thunder-flies. If a Thunder-fly after living on Oil Seed Rape dies inside a picture frame then the oil escapes from the dead body and causes a difficult or sometimes impossible to remove stain.
So getting back to prevention, I would suspect that any tape which does not permanently seal to the glass, (Masking tape is suspect in this regard), cannot be considered a fully credible solution. For a credible solution we need to check out our tape specifications first to be sure.
I'm going to try an experiment. I'll make a frame and just put a mount in it and not put any type of self-ahesive tape in it at all. The hatching season is coming up so I will see if they still find the frame attractive. 
Somehow I don't think it's the tape that attracts them. If this were the case, why struggle to get in a frame when there are various rolls of the stuff lying about.
Yes they do like alarms as well. The one at my local co-op down the road always goes off once a year at the start of the harvest.
Somehow I don't think it's the tape that attracts them. If this were the case, why struggle to get in a frame when there are various rolls of the stuff lying about.
Yes they do like alarms as well. The one at my local co-op down the road always goes off once a year at the start of the harvest.-
Not your average framer
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- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
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Hi Prospero,
It's not the tape at all! It's all down to the fact that they creep into these narrow places to mate and lay their eggs where they will be safe until they hatch. They probably die after mating and laying their eggs, still inside the frame.
I don't know if they are a problem in my home county of Devon, but to be sure of keeping them out by using a masking or similar type tape, you will need to pick the right one.
Clearly a crepe paper tape is great for ease of application and there are some which are specifically suited for assembly and packaging purposes such as the brown Tesa tape sold by Lion. Such tapes are not supplied as masking tape where a short adhesive life and ease of removal are the objective, but where permanence of adhesion is required.
These are the category of tapes which you should consider if you are going for a crepe paper tape. That is if we can assume that these flies cannot get penetrate through the tape. I suspect the Tesa would be a good choice due to it's high coat weight of a very long life adhesive which is still very sticky after years and will probably securely stick to the offending fly if it should succeed to penetrating the paper part of the tape.
It's not the tape at all! It's all down to the fact that they creep into these narrow places to mate and lay their eggs where they will be safe until they hatch. They probably die after mating and laying their eggs, still inside the frame.
I don't know if they are a problem in my home county of Devon, but to be sure of keeping them out by using a masking or similar type tape, you will need to pick the right one.
Clearly a crepe paper tape is great for ease of application and there are some which are specifically suited for assembly and packaging purposes such as the brown Tesa tape sold by Lion. Such tapes are not supplied as masking tape where a short adhesive life and ease of removal are the objective, but where permanence of adhesion is required.
These are the category of tapes which you should consider if you are going for a crepe paper tape. That is if we can assume that these flies cannot get penetrate through the tape. I suspect the Tesa would be a good choice due to it's high coat weight of a very long life adhesive which is still very sticky after years and will probably securely stick to the offending fly if it should succeed to penetrating the paper part of the tape.
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Roboframer
Nothing of my own is sealed - bar one thing in the bathroom and that's crap anyway haha pun not intended!!! Well, it's not crap, just of no value, a cheap print. Little for sale in the shop is sealed.
All is sealed at the back of course - but not the sandwich thing.
Never seen a thunder fly in any of my stuff yet have seen plenty in frames from my village, all of which met criteria mentioned above - crap framing - which may be bugger all to do with it, could just be down to what these people have growing in their gardens, or their neighbours have - the crops thing is confusing too, because most of the fly-filled stuff I have had in from the village has been from the 'posh' houses in the village centre.
I'm on the village boundary - I overlook fields and woods with the South Downs beyond.
Never seen a thunder fly in my HOUSE! - well, could easily miss something that small amongst the crane flies, mosquitoes, moths, gnats, spiders etc etc.
Maybe some people don't do enough housework, maybe some people have enough problems with bigger insects that those insects prey on the thunder flies.
Thinking about it, a lot of the frames full of flies have come from very old houses, posh as they may be - musty places - bags of character, but maybe also a damp problem, bad insulation, thatch even?
Anyone had to remove flies from a recently and well framed thing, from a modern home?
All is sealed at the back of course - but not the sandwich thing.
Never seen a thunder fly in any of my stuff yet have seen plenty in frames from my village, all of which met criteria mentioned above - crap framing - which may be bugger all to do with it, could just be down to what these people have growing in their gardens, or their neighbours have - the crops thing is confusing too, because most of the fly-filled stuff I have had in from the village has been from the 'posh' houses in the village centre.
I'm on the village boundary - I overlook fields and woods with the South Downs beyond.
Never seen a thunder fly in my HOUSE! - well, could easily miss something that small amongst the crane flies, mosquitoes, moths, gnats, spiders etc etc.
Maybe some people don't do enough housework, maybe some people have enough problems with bigger insects that those insects prey on the thunder flies.
Thinking about it, a lot of the frames full of flies have come from very old houses, posh as they may be - musty places - bags of character, but maybe also a damp problem, bad insulation, thatch even?
Anyone had to remove flies from a recently and well framed thing, from a modern home?
In Days of Yore there was a fad for making cheap 'frames' by taping around glass/back with stuff called 'Passe Partout' tape. I don't know if this is still made, but it was incredibly sticky. I have seen examples of this that must have been done pre-war and the tape was still clinging on like the proverbial to a blanket. Only prob is you need a blowtorch to detatch the stuff.
(page 74) And it's acid free. I'll order some forthwith.-
osgood
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Roboframer
Know what you mean Ormond.
On a normal re-frame I'll probably replace the glass, because the dimensions have changed, the old glass is so minging that it's cheaper to replace it than clean it, or I've upgraded to UV or museum.
In those cases, if the glass is sealed with tape you just run a blade through the tape and hoss out the old glass.
But the nightmare jobs are the sealed packages, esp the larger ones, where the glass is shattered. You have the frame face down, remove any tape from the back, remove the points/brads/staples/whatever, remove the backing board - it'll be MDF or other brown carp. Then you try and lift out the mounted artwork and find it's taped to the glass, shards hang down from what you are lifting instead of staying put, then you can't lay the mounted thing back in the frame rebate - the hanging shards prevent that, all you can do, without another pair of hands is .... well let's just leave it at........... 'IT'S A NIGHTMARE!!!'
Let it breathe for heaven's sake - there are other ways of sealing too - a bead of silicone around the rebate for example. Tried that once - maybe twice. Ever tried getting silicone off glass where you don't want it to be? Just chuck it - it's cheaper! Oh, and the cloth you tried to get it off with? Chuck that too!
On a normal re-frame I'll probably replace the glass, because the dimensions have changed, the old glass is so minging that it's cheaper to replace it than clean it, or I've upgraded to UV or museum.
In those cases, if the glass is sealed with tape you just run a blade through the tape and hoss out the old glass.
But the nightmare jobs are the sealed packages, esp the larger ones, where the glass is shattered. You have the frame face down, remove any tape from the back, remove the points/brads/staples/whatever, remove the backing board - it'll be MDF or other brown carp. Then you try and lift out the mounted artwork and find it's taped to the glass, shards hang down from what you are lifting instead of staying put, then you can't lay the mounted thing back in the frame rebate - the hanging shards prevent that, all you can do, without another pair of hands is .... well let's just leave it at........... 'IT'S A NIGHTMARE!!!'
Let it breathe for heaven's sake - there are other ways of sealing too - a bead of silicone around the rebate for example. Tried that once - maybe twice. Ever tried getting silicone off glass where you don't want it to be? Just chuck it - it's cheaper! Oh, and the cloth you tried to get it off with? Chuck that too!
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markw
These little critters have become a big problem around my area over the last few years and I have quite a few frames in for cleaning of varying quality. Its certainly not just cheap masking tape that allows entry - but this stuff does stop them moving as it sticks to them and traps them in vast numbers. Frames taped with lick and stick have the same problems - but its significant that the flies dont get trapped when the tape is firmly stuck - they do get trapped on the rebate edge where adhesion might not be as good.
The fact that the flies are trapped on the inside edge of the lick and stick is an interesting point indicating that they have entered the frame from the front. Using any tape to seal the glass backing board edge will stop flies getting under the glass.
Customers often say that they only get this problem in certain rooms - often the bright sunnier south facing ones. Almost always light coloured mounts - I dont think I have seen a dark coloured mount with the problem.
If I have a fly infested frame in for cleaning its normally at the very least a new mount, and I get enough in to make this a significant amount of business. Over the years I've had all sorts of nasty creepy crawlies to clean out of frames - the nastiest was a live, and very large German cockroach - the most unpleasant - maggots from a stuffed parrot - I had to resist telling the customer that the parrot was no more - It had gone to meet its maker - it was a deceased parrot.
The fact that the flies are trapped on the inside edge of the lick and stick is an interesting point indicating that they have entered the frame from the front. Using any tape to seal the glass backing board edge will stop flies getting under the glass.
Customers often say that they only get this problem in certain rooms - often the bright sunnier south facing ones. Almost always light coloured mounts - I dont think I have seen a dark coloured mount with the problem.
If I have a fly infested frame in for cleaning its normally at the very least a new mount, and I get enough in to make this a significant amount of business. Over the years I've had all sorts of nasty creepy crawlies to clean out of frames - the nastiest was a live, and very large German cockroach - the most unpleasant - maggots from a stuffed parrot - I had to resist telling the customer that the parrot was no more - It had gone to meet its maker - it was a deceased parrot.
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Not your average framer
- Posts: 11008
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- Interests: Lost causes, saving and restoring old things, learning something every day
- Location: Glorious Devon
And now courtesy of Robert Burns (adapted from To a Louse)
To a thunder-fly.
Ha! whaur ye gaun, ye crowlin ferlie?
Your impudence protects you sairly;
I canna say but ye strunt rarely,
Owre gauze and lace;
Tho', faith! I fear ye dine but sparely
On sic a place.
Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an' sinner,
How daur ye set your fit upon a-
Sae fine framer?
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On another framers work.
Swith! in some beggar's haffet squattle;
There ye may creep, and sprawl, and sprattle,
Wi' ither 'gainst the glass you rattle,
In shoals and nations;
Whaur horn nor bane ne'er daur unsettle
Your thick plantations.
Now haud you there, ye're out o' sight,
Below the sight-edge, snug and tight;
Na, faith ye yet! ye'll no be right,
Till ye've got in it-
You've been taped out, we've fixed you right
You wish we hadn't done it.
And adapted from "Duncan Grey"
Thunder-fly cam' here to woo,
Ha, ha, the wooing o't,
THe Framers Forum are ready for you,
Ha, ha, the wooing o't,
We've taped you out, so look elsewhere,
Look'd in, but you can't get in there,
Gart poor fly stand abeigh;
Ha, ha, the wooing o't.
To a thunder-fly.
Ha! whaur ye gaun, ye crowlin ferlie?
Your impudence protects you sairly;
I canna say but ye strunt rarely,
Owre gauze and lace;
Tho', faith! I fear ye dine but sparely
On sic a place.
Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an' sinner,
How daur ye set your fit upon a-
Sae fine framer?
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On another framers work.
Swith! in some beggar's haffet squattle;
There ye may creep, and sprawl, and sprattle,
Wi' ither 'gainst the glass you rattle,
In shoals and nations;
Whaur horn nor bane ne'er daur unsettle
Your thick plantations.
Now haud you there, ye're out o' sight,
Below the sight-edge, snug and tight;
Na, faith ye yet! ye'll no be right,
Till ye've got in it-
You've been taped out, we've fixed you right
You wish we hadn't done it.
And adapted from "Duncan Grey"
Thunder-fly cam' here to woo,
Ha, ha, the wooing o't,
THe Framers Forum are ready for you,
Ha, ha, the wooing o't,
We've taped you out, so look elsewhere,
Look'd in, but you can't get in there,
Gart poor fly stand abeigh;
Ha, ha, the wooing o't.
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Roboframer